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Anonymous.
Rob_Hugo@PortNWWork with your group in this thread.
Anonymous1.) Do Confucians think people are fundamentally good?
Yes I believe that Confucians believe that people are fundamentally good. Confucius believed that all people had potential abilities that cut across races and classes. That is why he designed the state-exam system, to allow the most intelligent people to move upwards in rank and class so that they could contribute their knowledge.
Confucius underscores the contrast between his ideas and those of Legalism, which state that humans are inherently selfish and evil, in this quote from the Analects:
"Lead the people with administrative injunctions and put them in their place with penal law, and they will avoid punishments but will be without a sense of shame. Lead them with excellence and put them in their place through roles and ritual practices, and in addition to developing a sense of shame, they will order themselves harmoniously." (Analects II, 3)
Discuss...
Anonymous2.) How should children be raised and educated? What should they be taught?
Confucians believe that children should learn from their elders, and that this was the only true way knowledge and wisdom could be passed down throught the generations.
While I think that Confucius thought that the younger generation owed strong duties of reverence and service to their older generation, it was just as important for the older generation to also have duties of benevolence and concern toward the younger.
Confucius said this about education:
"Study the past if you would define the future."
This quote demonstates the Confucian belief that education should focus mainly on learning from the past, including from those who have lived the longest.
I'll close my post with this quote from the Song Emperor Renzong. The Song Dynasty was famous for its implementation of the state-exam system and its focus on education, which helped make China an early meritocracy, in following Confucius's belief that ability arose from all classes and races.
" To enrich your family, there is no need to buy good land:
Books hold a thousand measures of grain.
For an easy life, there is no need to build mansion:
In books are found houses of gold.
When you go out, do not be upset if no one follows you:
In books there will be a crowd of horses and carriages.
If you wish to marry, don't be upset if you don't have a go-between:
In books there are girls with faces like jade.
A young man who wishes to be somebody
will devote his time to the Classics.
He will face the window and read."
Renzong, Song Emperor
[Edit by="mulmer on Mar 3, 5:54:41 PM"][/Edit]
Anonymous3.) How should society be governed? Who should rule? What goals should the government seek to achieve?
In direct conflict with the current neo-conservative executive branch of the United States government, as well as that of the Legalist-Hobbesian rogues, Confucius spoke out against oppressive, tyrannical governments.
For example, in this quote, Confucius relates an oppressive government to a fierce tiger:
"An oppressive government is more to be feared than a tiger."
Confucius seems to suggest government take the approach of Wu-Wei (Non-Action) when governmening its people:
"To govern by virtue, let us compare it to the North Star: it stays in its place, while the myriad stars wait upon it." (Analects II, 1)
Confucius is saying here that government should be almost immobile in the middle, as the North Star stays in one place, while all others rotate around it. From this, I can conclude that the last thing Confucius wanted was a tyranny, and could even be called a Libertarian after evaluating this quote:
"In a country well governed, poverty is something to be ashamed of. In a country badly governed, wealth is something to be ashamed of."
Yet another fascinating quote demonstrating Confucius's view of government:
In a conversation with Ji Kangzi (who had usurped power in Lu), Confucius advised: “If your desire is for good, the people will be good. The moral character of the ruler is the wind; the moral character of those beneath him is the grass. When the wind blows, the grass bends.” (Lunyu 12.19)
[Edit by="mulmer on Mar 3, 6:15:04 PM"][/Edit]
AnonymousDescribe the perfect society:
This point is difficult to explore, but I believe that in the perfect society as defined by Confucius, people would be doing good deeds towards eachother, with a government that only facilitates the actions of the people, but does not control them.
People would have utmost respect for each other:
"What you do not wish upon yourself, extend not to others."
Analect ( Lun Yu ) - Confucius 15:24 and 12:5
Among the four belief systems we are discussing: Confucianism, Mohism, Daoism, and Legalism, the one which would would produce the most perfect and most utopian world would be Confucianism.
"When the perfect order prevails, the world is like a home shared by all. Virtuous and worthy men are elected to public office, and capable men hold posts of gainful employment in society; peace and trust among all men are the maxims of the living. All men love and respect their own parents and children, as well as the parents of children of others. There is caring for the old; there are jobs for the adults; there is nourishment and education for the children. There is a means of support for the widows, and the widowers; for all who find themselves alone in the world; and for the disabled. Every man and woman has an appropriate role to play in the family and society. A sense of sharing displaces the effects of selfishness and materialism. A devotion to public duty leaves no room for idleness. Intrigues and conniving for ill gain are unknown. Villains such as thieves and robbers do not exist. The door to every home need never be locked and bolted by day or night. These are the characteristics of an ideal world, the commonwealth state."
On Utopia, Li Ji , Chap. 9
Confucius
I think he is talking about Canada. But even they are not that perfect. This quote more than any others demonstates the devotion Confucianists put on peoples ideals and good-nature.
Again, notice the direct contrast with the Neo-Legalist rogues and their iron-fisted wielding of power in order to terrorize the common man into submission to the government.
AnonymousMy Confucius Clan:
Please feel free to dissect my opinions. I'm sure anyone can easily interpret his quotes differently than I have. But I hope that the displaying of the various quotes helps to open up some discussion.
I believe it will be important to demonstrate examples of people innate goodness during the debate, as this seems to major part of the foundation of Confucianism.
Does anyone else see similarities between a Confucian Utopia and a Marxist Utopia? (refer to the quote from Confucius, quoted at length in my answer to Question 4). Marx's utopia being something like a place where there is no capitalism and no state, only a working society where people give according to their means and take according to their needs.
[Edit by="mulmer on Mar 4, 8:54:36 AM"][/Edit]
AnonymousGreat guiding thoughts, mulmer! I appreciate all of your insight on our assignment!
To answer the question to #1 on page 46, "Are people fundamentally good?" I believe Confucius makes this an easy answer for us. Yes, he is optimistic and believes in "innate goodness of humans and the perfectibility of humans."
To answer #2 on page 46, I believe Confucius is best exemplified in his beliefs in education. In my notes from last week's class, I wrote the following regarding Confucius:
1. Must educate and study
2. Use of repetition ("pound everything in your memory")
3. Use of rituals and norms
4. Follow the direction from the past and learn from it.
Clearly, he had strong beliefs on the importance of education and learning.
AnonymousIf I were to compare Confucianism with Daoism in terms of education, does it make sense to say Confucius would believe the way to expand your mind would be to study, learn from the past, and work hard; while a believer in Daoism would advise a student to discover things naturally, stop trying to figure everything out, and just follow whatever you feel is the way? Am I simplifying this too much?
AnonymousI attended a comparative religion seminar on the above religions or philosophies, and found the statement that North Vietnam is now devoid of values fascinating -- since Confucianism or any religion is now banned from Commmunist Society. Nothing was mentioned of materialism as a value. What does it mean to have a valueless society and what are its consequences? And is commodification a value, I tend to believe it is. We think of values in the normative but values are also in the renummerative and coercive. If we dismiss these values then it is difficult to anticipate a response to them. For example, if thinkers had anticipated commodification in such a material society would we be in a self destructive cycle with the environment today. Yes, underpinning a market economy are values--maybe not normative but nevertheless they set the tone for the culture.
On another point, both religions could explore the roots of sexism in their respective philosophies/religions in a non-defensive and humorless feminist manner. I am not sure the religions honor their ancestors in common fantasy but there is much grist for conversation in the traditions of women or a lack therof. [Edit by="jcsmyth on Apr 1, 10:52:52 PM"][/Edit]
[Edit by="jcsmyth on Apr 1, 10:54:09 PM"][/Edit]