Ritual Propriety & Personal Experience

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  • #5505
    Rob_Hugo@PortNW
    Keymaster

    After going over the Spring and Autumn Chronicles, I have a deeper understanding of ritual propriety. I come from a southeast asian family and it is so obvious to me now that ritual propriety is EVERYWHERE in my life. Take this for example--younger people need to bow down when they walk by older people, especially in an enclosed environment. It's to show respect.

    There was one instance where my mother had friends over and they were reminiscing in the den. I walked through the den without lowering my head and putting my hand together to greet the ladies and was abruptly berated for my lack of respect. The beration came from my mother's friends. Javascript:insertsmilie('%20:-(%20') Not only that, but later on in private, my mom told me that I had embarrassed her, too.

    The funny thing was that I KNEW that I should have done the proper greeting in the first place. I was hesitant to do it. It's just that I was so used to not having to do it with my own family and friends.

    I still feel awkward when I am around older people, specifically people from Cambodia. Being born in America makes it so much harder to follow traditional customs and ritual propriety.

    #33043
    Anonymous
    Guest

    I was pretty aware of ritual propriety when I met my Asian friends during the course of my early life here in LA and then lived in Japan from '88-'90. What I did not notice was just how the stress level I feel while on a flight to Japan goes up intensely, I am on my guard, making sure I prepared, proper, and have brought all the omiyage (gifts) for my friends and their families; not to mention making sure I visit all my friends and give them a chance to show me their ritual propriety (a major ritual propriety in Japan). Heck, just writing this is making my BP go up a few points.

    Still, I think that is what keeps such a crowded society's members from going at each other the way so many Western societies do. I don't think I have ever lost my temper in Japan. I can't say the same for LA. Without ritual propriety, rudeness is so rampant and angry public reaction is all too compulsory in my home city.

    As I said, I would be interested to see if my students can relate to ritual propriety and how they deem it necessary.....just with Asians and in Asian lands or could America use some (are they aware of any American customs that might serve similar purpose)?

    Talk about raw thinking.....sorry for the rambling.

    VO

    #33044
    Anonymous
    Guest

    I have been wonder if there is ritual propriety in the U.S. and can I find it within my experiences. I decided in the last week or so that I make an effort to do some observing of life around me. I used from David Schaberg's lecture the definition of ritual propriety as "treating everything as special."

    The easiest place to observe is at school and I chose after school as the best time to sit and watch. The first couple of days I saw nothing that fits the definition. I did see something special, it was children happy to see their parents, but nothing that would be considered a ritual. Finally one day I saw a gentleman from the junior high ranks kiss his father on the cheek. At this age level this is very unusal and taks courage to do it in front of the whole school. I even saw that he repeated it when greeting other relatives after a basketball game.

    So far, I have found ritual propriety and it is nice to see that it does exsists today in the U.S. My thought is that this is the exception and not the rule. I will keep on looking and maybe post some more on it.

    #33045
    Anonymous
    Guest

    I agree with SSamel. I was born in Mexico and brought to the U.S. when I was a baby so I was raised here but with Mexican cultural values. It sometimes makes me feel uncomfortable to be around older Mexican males or female, because I am afraid to slip and have my mother labeled as a "bad" mother because I was not raised properly.

    Ritual Propriety is also weaved heavily into Latino culture. Coming from a Mexican home there were certain things I had to do. Some of them entailed going to religious classes on Saturday mornings, attending mass EVERY sunday, when speaking to adults addressing them with respect (Usted vs. tu), when adults are talking you wait until they have all finished before you can say anything, never asking WHY (it's a sign of disrespect). So I can see from personal experience how ritual propriety is important in a culture and to a certain aspect it holds the culture together.

    I think we should teach our students to value and follow theirs as a form of holding on to something that belongs to them and can be passed down to their children, their children's children, etc.

    #33046
    Anonymous
    Guest

    It's funny. I like to say that I was raised as a Confucian Chinese Daughter. I was very obedient as a young girl. Even though, I was always favored by my relatives as being the "model" eledest daughter, I've always felt immense pressure, responsibility, duty, and obligation. I was living out ritual propriety without ever realizing it.

    When I became older, I think in college. I started to understand more and had the opportunity to take classes in Chinese history and culture. But at that point, I became very rebellious against rituals and propriety. It drove my mother crazy.

    It's interesting how when I started martial arts more than a year ago. Ritual propriety dictates the Dojo as well. We always bow while entering and leaving the dojo, and to senior ranks.

    It's true, ritual propriety is everywhere and understand it allows me to understand the people whose lives it dictates as well because I am understanding myself and my family more. Especially my mother, who takes ritual propriety very seriously.

    #33047
    Anonymous
    Guest

    I always find it so interesting to hear various rituals and traditions among enthicities and cultures. I was born and raised in Chicago, as were my parents, and their parents, and their parents, etc. My Polish roots do not go back to Poland until I reach my grandparents parents (whom I have obviously never met). I suppose there are a few rituals and traditions which have remained in my family throughout the generations, but I always felt a lack of culture growing up.

    My fiance and I talk about this issue and wonder what will be left of our traditions for our kids? We have made a promise to create our own NEW traditions which our kids can carry out through the years. Families rich in culture are so much fun to be around and there is so much to be learned from them...

    #33048
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Being raised in Hawaii and primarily with my Japanese heritage, I am very well aware of ritual propriety. One always greets and acknowledges your grandparents or elders as soon as you enter the household. When you go on a trip, it is customary to buy omiyage for family and friends: our Japanese neighbor, whenever they would go on a trip; always brought back something to give to us. My cousin who married a woman raised in California, but parents are from Japan; whenever they visit Hawaii, she is well prepared with omiyage for the family.
    It is also customary when someone invites you over, you do not go empty handed, either you prepare a dish, or bring dessert: even though hostess says not to bring anything: it just is a sign of appreciation and feels good to contribute.
    As I experience living in California, I have observed ritual propriety among those who hold on to their traditions, such a my friend from Columbia, who always buys an omiyage when she goes on a trip as well as my friend from Jordan, who does the same for his family and friends.
    For some ritual propriety may too much of an obligation, but when you are raised in a culture of mutual respect and understanding, there is no second guessing, not a chore, but brings joy and good relations; this is all part of life and bonding of relationships, it feels good.
    Perhaps that is why Asians and traditional cultures enjoy a long life, because of their value for relationships and ritual propriety.

    #33049
    Anonymous
    Guest

    Samel,

    I hear you on the ritual propriety. Although I am not Asian, I can relate to your experience. I am Mexican-American, but was raised with strictly Mexican values. I was raised to always greet and refer to my elders (whether they are 20 years or 5 years older than me) as "usted", which is the formal way of saying "you". It blows my mind when I hear my friends or younger kids refer to their parents and other adults in the "tu" or informal "you". My mouth drops, and I always have to ask my friends if they refer to ALL elders and adults in that fashion. It seems soo disrespectful to me because I don't know any other way.
    When I visit our home town in Jalisco, Mexico it's a whole different story. Everyone refers to their elders in the formal form of "you" and we ALWAYS greet them. It is considered very rude and an embarrassment to your family if you do not acknowledge your elders (whether you know them or not).

    In our small town in the southwest of Jalisco, we have a tradition where you must also greet EVERY single person you encounter while you are out and about. If you see 15-30-100 people on your way to church or the store you must say "buenas tardes" or "Adios" to them or you are considered rude and ill-mannered...and yes, word does get back to your parents.

    Although this seems a little extreme, I also find it very beautiful. If we are missing anything in this world it is contact with others. It's always embarrassing to get to Mexico and immediately start reciting your one-thousand-hellos the minute you enter town, but I always miss it when I return to L.A and no one even bothers to look you in the eye or spare a smile.

    So I say HOORAY for ritual and propriety, and a YIPPEEE to respect and friendliness!
    [Edit by="rflores on Jul 28, 12:52:52 AM"][/Edit]
    [Edit by="rflores on Jul 28, 12:14:40 PM"][/Edit]

    #33050
    Anonymous
    Guest

    One last comment on Ritual Propriety...

    here is a blurb from a book I read over 10 years ago about a young girl named Hang reflecting on her childhood, family history, and leaving her home country, Vietnam. This story offered my first glimpse of Confucianism, homage to ancestors, and ritual propriety (Although Mexican culture has its own system of "ritual propriety", I did not know what it was called until I was in college). This is a great and easy read. Duong Thu Huong's Paradise of the Blind is a resource for Vietnamese culture, a story of obligation, family ties, humiliation, sorrow, growing up, sacrifice, betrayal, and compassion. If you are looking for a good story, a memorable narrative, pick this book up, today!

    Paradise of the Blind
    by Duong Thu Huong

    "Paradise of the Blind is an exquisite protrait of three Vietnamese women struggling to survive in a society where subservience to men is expected and Communist corruption crushes every dream. Through the eyes of Hang, a youn woman in her twenties who has grown up amidst the slums and intermittent beautty of Hanoi, we come to know the tragedy of her family as land reform rips apart their village. When her uncle Chinh's political loyalties replace family devotion, Hang is torn between her mother's appalling self-sacrifice and the bitterness of her aunt who can avenge but not forgive. Only by freeing herself from the past will Hang be able to find dignity--- and a future."

    #33051
    Anonymous
    Guest

    In reply to the observation of the child kissing relatives on the cheek. This is interesting, since it is common in many other cultures for people to kiss each other on the cheek when greeting each other no matter what the gender. I'm shure we've all seen this in movies. The first time that I truly encountered this was while visiting relatives in Poland. Let's say that Polish people are very friendly, although I guess they sensed our uneasiness and soon switched to the more American handshake.

    #33052
    Anonymous
    Guest

    I believe ritual propriety can be found in any society. It would seem that power and authority always have as a benefit the added dimension of ritual reverence associated with them. Be you latino, asian, european, or african, there are strict codes of ethics regarding acceptable and unacceptable behaviors around those who are percieved to have more authority or power than oneself due to position in all regions. What I believe seperates asian ritual propriety from lets say latino ritual propriety, is that asian ritual propriety has really been disscussded and written about in Confucist thought. These principles are taught and openly discussed. In contrast, latino ritual propery is more seemingly implicit as opposed to being explicit. It is a concept not open to disussion with others outside the core group. My examples of this are my Chinese roomate from college, and my realtationship with my wife, my mother-in-law, and myself.

    Every year, my college roomate Jacki Lin would always go with his family to pay respect to his ancestors at Thanksgiving. On a couple of occasions I went with him. We lit incense, put out a couple of pictures, and left a little offering, steped back bowed a couple of time in respect, and then went out to lunch to hear a million and one tales of how Mr. and Mrs. Lin Senior had survived terrible episodes in China. I learned that Jacki's father, Dr. Lin, had brought his parents from China to live in a condo Jacksonville soon after his immigration to the US. How he had helped them establish a small buisness with his earnings as a resident, how it was his father's just established credit that had allowed them to expand the buisness. Jacki discussed the importance of this continued rememberance and devotion on the part of his father to his parents as we went home, and spoke of it in terms of his duty and devotion. From the look on his face it was important and meaningful to him.

    On the other hand there is my wife and her mother. We all still live together, and try as we might--we are unable to do anything right for abuela. Now my wife was told, much less read that as the only daughter of a single mother it would be her job to provide a home for her mother. When ever I ask why my mother-in-law won't take items and money we offer her for a new apartment down payment, she refuses. Yet she'll want to order us to surrender the our functional old car, and get a new one, so she might bestow it on family memebers in Mexico. Prestige, influence are these her motivators? I quess in her mind, ritual propriety would have us do so in the hopes of improving our standing in the extended latino family structure. What I have taken all these contradictions to mean is that my mother-in-law likes look good in the eyes of her larger family. And I'm OK with that. As we are both well paid professionals--not that she doesn't make a good living of her own--our academic and passible economic success bring her both pride and clout amongst others. As along as we don't force her out--even into a comfortable place of her own near-by, she'll continue to feel as if we've done right by her.

    In many ways both displays of propriety and loyalty are similar. Yet I wonder if aside from felial catholic writings, are there examples of other writings calling for loyalty to the family and the payment of respect to authority in Mexican and latino culture? [Edit by="chellmold on Jul 29, 11:54:19 AM"][/Edit]
    [Edit by="chellmold on Jul 29, 11:56:36 AM"][/Edit]

    #33053
    Anonymous
    Guest

    I wish we had a little bit of ritual propriety in the United States. While its mostly symbolized by traditions and customs, behind those traditions and customs are values adn respect for elder. The understanding that older people do have knowledge and wisdom, and that a young person shoudl not dismiss that wisdom. In todays society kids in a way are given too much equality, many refuse to admit that their elders know more and are simply looking out fo rtheir guidance. At least in these other customs while kids may rebel, as a scoiety its is understtod and accepted taht older people have wisdom to pass on. In my culture we are a bit more in the middle. When visitors come over it is expceted that the children of teh house come forward to greet and talk with teh visitors, in addition for teh most part you are expected to do as they say. etc etc. However it is different in they applaud wittiness, even in the case of being of child to adult. For example when my father and I went to his village, my nine year old cousin made smart alec remarks to my dad, showing off some information she knew, and kinda of "putting him in his place"; very fiesty girl, and everyone including my father lauyghed and applauded. i was a little suprised. Whiel she of course did not insult him, she stood up for her opinion and was extremely clever and witty which was greatly encouraged, I remembered thinking if we had bee nin in America in teh 50s she probably woudl have been sent to her room for that kinda of behavior.

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