July 28 - Reading Assignments - Discussion

[Rob_Hugo@PortNW]

Hi everyone,

Please use this thread to post questions and discussion on your reading assignments for Tuesday, July 28:

- Early East Asia, Clayton Dube
- 19th Century China, Clayton Dube

-Miranda

[Anonymous]

I have a question for those who know more about Daoism than I do, (which isn't much). In these readings from the Laozi, is it saying that, "ignorance is bliss"? Quotes: re. the sage, "He empties people's minds and fills their bellies." Yet later it states, "For minds, depth is good." "When people are hard to govern, it is because they know too much." It rings of medieval Europe and the early Catholic church.

[Anonymous]

I know this isn't the first time I have thought this; however, moving on - There is such a correlation between Legalism and Machiavelli's The Prince. Don't trust flatters - actually - don't trust anyone. Also, comments that relate to love and fear. Western and eastern philosophers do have some similarities.

[Anonymous]

I think Laozi is suggesting that in order to follow "The Way" one needs to surrender to the spontaneity like we often see in nature. Daoism also appears compatible with Confucianism in terms of the idea that the educated should lead. Where Confucians seek harmony with society and the state, Daoists seek inner harmony and balance to function within society. One can be a Confucian by day and a Daoist at night.

[Anonymous]

Particularly enjoyed the excerpt from "Liang Qichao on his trip to America". Here the lens is flipped so that we can learn about his culture through his reactions to our own. "...I look at the slums of New York and think with a sigh that socialism cannot be avoided". The comment about libraries was intriguing--how does an entire culture of 'Orientals' come to have his ethic. And why don't we?[Edit by="cbessolo on Jul 27, 10:50:05 PM"][/Edit]

[Anonymous]

#6 Confucian Teachings

What is wrong?
At the time of Confucius China was suffering from what we might say was a state of chaos with wars between feudal states and a lack of strong leadership. Confucius believed that China was in a disharmonious state.
How ought it be?
He believed the people must live in harmony with nature as well as with each other. He believed each person and a role and with that role came rules of conduct.
Action Plan
Look to the past for guidance…Confucius believed that people should look to a time of order and peace using what he thought was “an ideal age of the early Zhou” as his guide. He taught that all people what ever their role should “accept the parts assigned to them, devoting themselves to their responsibilities to others. Through his Analects he teaches the ideas of proper conduct and relationship among people. In the reading, the role of “the Gentleman” is explained in detail. The role of the child and the parent is an important component of the teachings of Confucius, known as filial piety he calls for the child to respect the parent at all times. He also stresses the role of the ruler, calling for the ruler to govern well and to respect his subjects.
[Edit by="kheukrodt on Jul 27, 11:55:40 PM"][/Edit]

[Anonymous]

I'm sure someone will bring this up in class tomorrow, if we have time, but I was quite surprised just how similar Legalism seems to be to Machiavelli. I wonder if he got his theories from this philosophy? After all, he did work with the Medici during the early years of the Renaissance, a time where classical and eastern ideas were again making their way back into European society. It's just a thought to ponder.

[Anonymous]

#7 Daoists Teachings

What is wrong?

Humans have separated themselves from nature, as a result society can be considered evil because humans have “separated themselves from the Way by plotting and planning, analyzing and organizing”.

How ought it be?

Humans need to become “one with nature” in order to be happy. People will find their own happiness.

Action Plan
In Daoism philosophy the goal is to reach “enlightenment” or the Way.
To find this happiness and “enlightenment”, one needs to withdraw to nature and reflect. Daoists believe humans need to think and communicate with nature in order to find their own way.

[Anonymous]

#8 Legalist Teachings

What is wrong?
As small states were being conquered by larger states on a regular basis those rulers who remained were seeking ways to keep their power and to maintain control

How ought it be?

A strong government must be strong having “effective Institutional structure.” There must be laws in place because “ when one governs on the basis of established laws, the officials will have experience and the common people will feel secure”.

Action Plan?
To set laws and let the people know what these laws are in order to strengthen the state. According to Han Feizi ministers serve a ruler because they suit the need of that ruler. A ruler should avoid putting “great confidence in a son” or a wife, because they can be used against the ruler. Also a ruler should avoid letting any minister, gain power because that power may be used against the ruler.
[Edit by="kheukrodt on Jul 27, 11:12:23 PM"][/Edit]

[Anonymous]

Prince Shotoku:
It seems his constitution was a means for addressing a fundamental question: how does one govern effectively? He seemed to have found a solution through the use of popular Eastern philosophies such as Confucianism, Buddhism, and others. I noticed their belief systems were evident through several parts of the document. In order to achieve the solution of effective government, Shotoku seemed to suggest one implement the best aspects of philosophies in order to obtain effective governance. One should seek out educated, level minded, capable people and enourage them to join in the bureaucracy to make it the best possible.

[Anonymous]

Confucianism and legalism are attempting to unify society and the state. This was an important goal for Confucians during the Zhou dynasty and then later during the Han. Virtue for Confucius is based on harmony with other people and appears to be more important than human life for Confucius. One of the problems in early China is unifying the state. There are different ways to accomplish this. For Confucius, the best government is one that is based on natural morality; not force. Confucius ideology includes reciprocal relationships. They also appear to place some limits on the government. In contrast to Confucian teachings, legalists focus on the idea that human nature is evil and require strict laws in order to govern and to unify the state. I can see why Meg mentioned the The Prince as it has the "It is better to be feared than loved quality about it."The Prince For Han Feizi, effective institutional structures are more important than moral qualities of rulers. This becomes apparent during the Qin dynasty :} D

[Anonymous]

Appreciate the breakdown of each philosophy...makes it easy to understand. Although I have heard and have a little knowledge of Confucianism, Daoism, Legalism and Buddhism...I never heard of Mohism I would like to read more about it.

[Anonymous]

Prince Shotoku

To win political leadership over the people, Prince Shotoku encourages his people to accept imperial rule and centralize the government. His Seventeen Article Constitution allows for the public good to be placed “above private interests”. His marriage between Buddhism and Confucianism is at the center of his approach to government and social philosophy yet he is able to maintain Japanese traditions, while borrowing from the Chinese.
[Edit by="kheukrodt on Jul 28, 6:29:43 PM"][/Edit]

[Anonymous]

The Kenmu Code
Honor was to be upheld by the warriors through example, it is their responsablity to prevent crimes (police of Japan?).
I found the parralles between values aluded to in the The Kenmu Code and values that USA were founded on 440 years later.
ex:
article 15: the poors right to have a hearing (Equal protection under the law)
Art: 19: Admonishing oficial negligence (judicial review/ impeachment)
there are a few others. It is interesting to me to see how these Codes of behaviour and society existed a couple hundred years before Europe began their Enlightenment and revolutions.

-Just a Thought[Edit by="slopez on Aug 3, 10:00:35 AM"][/Edit]

[Anonymous]

Prince Shotoku's 17 Article Constitution was enlightening. Art. 10 expresses the idea of right and wrong "though we alone may be in the right, let us follow the multitude and act like them," is a complete 180 from the idea that "What is popular is not always right, what is right is not always popular" many instill in kids in school or home.
I might be taking this out of context, but teaching jr high, I can see a debate over these two ideas pop up.

I am in total agreement with Sophia. I read the Kenmu Code and thought of the American Revolution. Even more so, I was trying to compare what I know about the European Chivalry and Islam law I have to teach, and the similarities between the three. I have never seen the Kenmu Code, nor the 99 Article testament, but these are great primary sources I can incorporate when we do compare the two/three civilizations.

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