July 28 - Session 2 - Dube - 19th Century China - Evaluations

[Rob_Hugo@PortNW]

Hi everyone,

Please share your thoughts about our July 28 afternoon session, "19th Century China," by Clayton Dube by replying to this post.

-Miranda

[Anonymous]

Does the historical timeline tell us more about a story of a revolving door, a door of changes. These changes can, As Professor Dube mentioned, be broken down into three essential themes. No doubt about it, every country has to deal with her own economic ups and downs, just like we saw today in the American economy as well as the British empire in the early 20th century full of promises. I also learned that by looking at non-Han people such as the Manchu as a totally tribal, ethnic group from the Northeast of China, along with an individual like Marco Polos far from Italy can rewrite the history of Chinese dynasties. Just like Professor Dube said, it was all kinds of possibilities and questions out there. Things change hands not because people want to, but because under the immediate needs. For example, the Opium War, will not be ever created if the Chinese peasants or rulers at that time could be a little bit creative for avoiding it occur.

With British's needs to expand her capital and develop more resources after Industrial Revolution, British people have "executed" and taken a series of actions to see the result of opening the five trading cities with the Chinese simply by declaring all treaties in Treaty of Nanking. What a revolutionary idea!!! Why it is revolutionary because ever since that time, China has been sleeping in the fog of Opium. China did not wake up until "I Generation" or "Us Generation" breaks through all the barriers of territory. So it is not a phsical territory issue but a symbolic issue of territory. So The past is not yet closed completely. It is open for all the questions to be answered in the future. It is open for all "people," regardless of whether you are Han or non-Han people," to remember. And that is one of the reasons we are here, I suppose. julie

[Anonymous]

I was interested in this session in particular today. The information on Marco Polo was intriguing. I had assumed that his trip was authentic and never heard any accounts to the contrary until today. It seems more plausible that he had not gone, given the extreme difficulty in such a trek in the first place, let alone managing to become a "close advisor" to an Emperor who conquered the most populous kingdom on Earth (and who I very much doubt would need the advice of a foreigner with no knowledge of Eastern history, people, customs, or traditions). Clay did get me thinking about how it isn't really important if his trip is real or fake, since it certainly helped fuel the European desire to explore the world outside of Europe.

[Anonymous]

I guess if you tell a lie enough times it becomes the truth…is that what Marco Polo did? I had never heard the thought that maybe he never actually made it to China I find that extremely interesting so I will get a copy of M Woods book and read up on her take. Although whether or not he went is not as important as the fact that he provided the catalyst that made others go, like Clay’s example of C Columbus! I often try to get my students to think about what would happen if an event did not take place. If Lincoln did not die, Madam Currie did not discover uranium…if Mandela did not spend 25 years in prison! Would we be the country we are, would we be concerned about N. Koreas nuclear energy, would South Africa still have a system of apartheid? The what if game is an interesting diversion…but it does cause one to think!

I was especially interested in the Manchu period, 267 years and then it’s all gone! “Internal disorder/External threats”… what an easy concept to understand. I was appreciative of the explanation of the Opium War discussion…text books do not go into the economic strain of opium use at least not High School textbooks, it seems that many of textbooks look at the social consequences not the economic impact on China! Or it is the economic impact relating to Great Britain. Would like to know more about the 2nd Opium war…maybe next week.

All in all a lot of information…now to process it all!

[Anonymous]

Encouraging students to remember the notion of contingencies in shaping history is a really good idea. I think this especially applies to the study of geography and makes it so much more relevant for them. As an example, I'm reminded of a discussion I had last year with students re the retreat of communist into the northern China mountain caves to escape nationalist forces. Many "what ifs" ensued.

The role of the Manchus and the perception of them by the Chinese is now much clearer. Understanding them in the role of nomadic conquerors invites comparison to other regions and the notion of open/closed stance toward "others". i.e. Moors in North Africa and Spain

The "opium problem" complicates the ideology of behavior motivated by cultural values that we looked at in the section on early philosophies.

Feet binding. A poignant fictional description of the suffering that girls endure in the formative process can be found in Lisa See's novel: Snowflower and the Secret Fan

[Anonymous]

Wow! Asian ancient history is definitely my weak spot and man did I get an earful today! That was great!

I went to Chinatown to walk it out and found most of souvenirs were from this "classic" period we talked about today; samari swords, Buddha, zodiac symbols, hat with Q's attached, silk robes, jade carvings. Sadly we also found a lot of closed shops and not a lot of customers. Perhaps Chinese-Americans are not relegated to cultural neighborhoods like they used to be. Perhaps China doesn't have the exotic appeal it had when the Nanking Treaty was signed. What will our relationship be like now? How will we connect and relate to each other as modern cultures in a global society?

I do have several questions from todays lecture that I thought I could post for some helpful feedback -
1. Did people honor their ancestors to point out the rich and famous they were related to?
2. If a dynasty rose up from the West, the South and the North - why didn't one come from Japan?
3. Why didn't Japan or Korea build stronger Navies? why didn't they explore?
4. If Britain explored the world in search of spices, why is their food still so bland?

Libby =:O [Edit by="lhuff on Jul 28, 8:34:17 PM"][/Edit]

[Anonymous]

4. If Britain explored the world in search of spices, why is their food still so bland?

i will vouch for that..."fish and chips" everywhere....

I really enjoyed the controversy in regards to did Marco Polo go? was he a liar? this unknown part of history definitely interests me (i will have to order the book i suppose). when teaching history, i try to tell the students history is not always static. it changes...researchers and historians constantly find new facts and materials that may disprove/prove previous theories. This is a great example!

Setting the foundation of China where they had been burned by the British during the Opium wars and having to force a lopsided treaty helps students understand why China thinks the way they do today is great. This gives students more insight on present day China's foreign relations. Even though this seminar for the most part will focus on modern day history of East Asia, this is a great point to set for us all...

[Anonymous]

I liked the discussion about whether Marco Polo really went to China or not? This makes a good inquiry for students. I did an exercise with my students about Rosa Parks and where she was sitting on the bus. They were given documents and had to piece together the clues to figure this out.

I also like the "what if" type questions. Would the world be different now if China didn't turn inward after Zheng He's voyages? Or would things be different if the Qing would have challenged the existing order or attempted to modernize.

The Shunzhi Emperor's edict for the Manchus would make a good comparison with Peter the Great and his reforms.

[Anonymous]

I thought that this afternoon's session was packed full of information that I think that our kids will find interesting. I have two questions that I'd like to ask, but I didn't want to slow down Clay's flow, so I held off from asking them today. But I'd like to know more about the Japanese social hierarchy during the "Warrior" period. Clay said that the Samurai were at the top socially and that the merchants were at the bottom or low in society, but rich in money. I'd like to know why society held the merchants in low regards during that time. Was it because they were seen as greedy, and thus not honorable, and if so, how were the western traders viewed at that time if that were the case? So I have some questions along those lines, and if those views towards merchants changed over time.
Also, in regards to China, since Britain essentially treated the Chinese so badly during the Treaty of Nanjing, and in subsequent treaties, how are the British viewed today? Is it equal to or different than their views on the US? Those are my target areas of questions about today's class that I'd like to ask about at the appropriate time tomorrow.

[Anonymous]

I like Mark's question about how the British are viewed today in China. Interesting! When I was in east central Africa in1997 there were mixed views of the Europeans. In Tanzania they hated the Portuguese and took us to one of the old slave trading areas, but their views of the British were mixed in Tanzania, Uganda, and Kenya. Of course, I was mainly with educators and business people. Some felt there were elements of the western world which had moved them forward in the past, but it was the domination and how it was done. There were a few that believed the Europeans should be helping them more today.

On British food - one can find Indian food on every other corner in the UK. They love their "curry"as they usually call it.

[Anonymous]

Like many others, I was very intriqued by the Marco Polo mystery, and subsequent thought that in great scheme of things, "it doesn't really matter." I try and remind students that there is a lot about the past that we don't know for sure because we don't have any verifiable documentation, or the sources differ. I ask students, "if you kept a diary and I found it, would I really know everything about you and the honest facts?...how about your MySpace? Does it really give me an accurate picture of who you really are?" They get the point quickly that we can easily be deceived, even when something is in writing.

Many, many years ago, I read a historical fiction book by Gary Jennings (his book Aztec was required reading for my History of Modern Mexico class back in college) entitled The Voyager. It's a highly entertaining and quite bawdy account of Marco Polo's travels. I find it ironic that it could just turn out to be a fictional account of a fictional account.

[Anonymous]

China's experience with outsiders has definitely left it scars. From the Mongols to the Manchus to the British and all the other imperialist powers who had extraterritoritality (wow that's a long word) the Chinese are fearful of being bossed around by outsiders. The bravado to stand up to outsiders is evident in both Mao's and Sun Yatsen's rhetoric during the revolution and it still exists today as Dube has explained in this current economic summit between USA and China.

China has deep-seated ethnocentric feelings. When I teach this topic I discuss how this is related to China's relative isolation in the early period (b/c of the Gobi Desert, and Himalayans). After reading the philosophy readings and the later readings that all draw on the 'great sages' its obvious that this view of outsiders is also due to China's pride in its long history of sages and rulers. So how does Mao justify the cultural revolution???

[Anonymous]

I really enjoy the focus on content (especially when related to the standards). The trade restrictions China implemented were very interesting. It shows that China was trying to resist foreign influence. Sometimes it seems that China is portrayed as a bystander and not as active participants. Another very interesting point was reasons for the Opium War. The social effects of the use and abuse of opium was not really what prompted the Chinese government but rather tax rebellions. I had never considered the economic effects opium had.

I left wanting to learn more about the opium war from different perspectives; in addition to the foot binding. (a true history nerd!)
:}

[Anonymous]

Marco Polo being a storyteller is new. I never heard of it, in fact, his trip to China is part of my curriculum. I will be fun to discuss this theory in class.
The idea of footbinding is always popular with my students. "Why would someone do that?" To correlate it to other civilizations' practices including their own, is great to discuss. The idea most of my students get is "What else do they do?" I forgot about the queue, that would be another topic that would probably get them hooked into the subject.

[Anonymous]

I think that I will likely use some of the philosophy readings in my classes. I think that reading these philosophies (perhaps in contrast to readings that I assign from Winthrop, Edwards, Franklin, and Thorea?) will provide an interesting perspective for my students on cultural differences, and specifically, the various ways that we think. In my American literature class, I try to emphasize our country's mythic individualism, and help students realize that this is an ideology unique to our country. Presenting an Eastern perspective on philosophy might be the best way for them to see that our way of viewing things in America is just that -- a way, not the only way.

I also thought that Clay's point about individualism in Chinese culture, and the resulting drive for unity, was very interesting because I had always considered the Chinese as being very community-oriented. I'll have to present all of these ideas to my students and see what they can make of it.

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