Menu
close
clay dube.
Rob_Hugo@PortNWHi everyone,
Please use this thread to post questions and discussion on your reading assignments for Wednesday, July 29:
- War and Revolution in China
- Maoist China
-Miranda
AnonymousBrowsing through last night's reading, I found that many elite people like Zeng Guofang, a country gentel, would follow the Confucius' thinking: Let's reflect what we did wrong and patch whatever we could to change the unavoidable destiny under the "Li- ritual, a courtesy and mutual respect of all parties involved." Of course, it would not work for people who had no clues of who Confucius was during the Qing Dynasty.
And comes up a good idea to learn something innovative just like newly developed technology and gun power (science, chemistry) from the West. Many capable Chinese people were abroad to learn from the West. What they saw were quite similar but different "images" than those I saw when I landed here. Again Liang Qichao reflected his people in an honest manner, but even his story from abroad cound not change the Qing Dynasty's fate.
As more conflicts and "mis-communication" between the East and the West" through contacts, the earlier reformers such as Sun Yeshan and the communists, Chen Duxiu and Mao Zhedong stood out as a role of revolutionary leaders to lead a country full of "old baggages." Just like the western who have no fear to speak out and take action even though the confrontations can be ugly, this time the Chinese want to see the change. And it did for a short period. Look at the June 4 Tian An Men Massacure for the Chinese student peaceful movement, who can tell us that the western democracy works in China??? julie
AnonymousRe.: Edward Morse, Japanese Houses . . .
I love his comments about imitation, but if some of you would like to know a little bit more about Morse, he was part of the Arts and Crafts movement of this country, not as artist or architect, but as a collector, especially of Japanese pottery. As we head to Pasadena on Friday, be aware that this town has many great examples of the American Arts and Crafts movement which took its influences from Asia, especially Japan. Morse was fascinated with the art and history of Japanese ceramics and painstakingly cataloged his collection, most of which is in the MFA in Boston, though some of it is in the Peabody Museum in Salem. Here is a link to part of his collection at the MFA http://www.mfa.org/collections/sub.asp?key=22&subkey=116
For those of you who don't know much about the Arts and Crafts Movement, you know the name Frank Lloyd Wright, another who was greatly influenced by the Japanese as demonstrated by his work here, and in Japan.
AnonymousFrom the readings with Mao and Jiang, I noticed how conciliatory Jiang seemed to be towards every group within the borders of China who wanted, or were even considering independence. He seemed to be willing to give up huge swaths of land that Manchus had conquered to appease the population there. I don't know if he thought this would give him more support, especially from these groups, or if he simply wanted to do away with a major headache for the Kuomintang government. He was especially concerned about Japan, and how the people of China had to come together to fight this outside invader.
Mao, on the other hand, was very focused on his goals of communism and the achievement of a strong, stable communist regime. His arguments are clear, concise, and to the point. He does not mince words, nor waste them. Given that the overwhelming majority of Chinese at this time (even today) were uneducated or poorly educated, this tactic proved to be highly successful. After all, Mao was easily able to refill his ranks even after the communists were nearly obliterated by the nationalists several times over. I sort of felt like he was throwing in a little Confucianism at the end of his list of quotes about communism and war to give a Confucian face to his clearly non-Confucian governmental ideas.
Anonymous1941 lured with food many farmers join the comunist fighters to wrest control of the land from the landowners. They are successful, land is distributed a equaly to the peasents. They are repaid for their services with a demotion to second class citizenship.
pg 149. quote 11
Mao talks about te peasants and treating people fairly. However, in practice he seams to completely contradict himself.
From the Eight points for Attention:2. pay fairly for what you buy, Through the Big Push we see how the farmers were not paid fairly for their crops in order to cut prices and speed towords industrialization. And to ensure that the urban areas were well fed thier mobility was pretty much forbidden unless they recieved permission. 85% of the poplution was denied basic services that many Americans take advantage of in America. Through being born into the agricultural hukou chinese farmers are dinie acess to social welfare and the ability to move to cities to find jobs or improve their situations. not only that, they are also denied national resources... from land they farmed and lived on. And being that they governemtn controlled the farms they could not compete for fair prices for their goods. I can't believe that this is allowed to exist today!
AnonymousI find it a strikingly odd coincidence that while the youth of China were marching in their counterrevolution, American youth were starting their counterculture. What do you make of that?
Questions: Did the Tienamen Square "kids" invoke this bit of history to support/justify their cause? I also found it interested in the last reading about the Red Guard massacre that after 3 years of increasing power this kids turned into rival factions and fought almost like gangs. Interesting social experiment gone horribly wrong.
Victims was beautifully written and I think the students would enjoy reading it too. Lots of different moral dilemmas and perspectives to discuss.
Is it just me or does it seem like through it all the dynasties, revolutions and counterrevolutions that the Chinese love their centralized autocratic govt.? I didn't know anything about Wei Jingsheng so I googled him. Great 18 min clip about what he is doing now to fight for democracy in China.
Cheers -
Libby
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ola_EJf8TzE[Edit by="lhuff on Jul 28, 10:30:53 PM"][/Edit]
AnonymousIt was interesting to read about the movement against foot-binding and how they attempted to resolve the marriage problem created by it. I like to know more about the marriage ceremonies and why the anti-footbinding society wanted to discard them.
The selected quotations from Mao made me want to go back and read Lenin, Marx, and Rosa Luxemburg to see how Mao's idea about revolution and what is necessary to make it succeed. He seems to be suggesting that an educated revolutionary party is needed to lead the working classes. Mao seems to agree with Lenin about a Party leading the revolution. However, for Mao the peasants are the proletariat. The eight points for attention would appeal to peasants.
I enjoyed reading the oral histories. Some of the recruitment methods seemed similar to early Nazi techniques in terms of the associations formed to gain supporters. Only in this case, peasant associations were formed. :}
AnonymousThe readings of Jiang and Mao were well organized, well prepared writings about their ideologies. Reading Mao’s quotations I found in #11 under War The Three Main Rules of Discipline and the Eight Points for attention extremely appealing to villagers: to summarize he said do not steal from the people, pay for everything you damage and buy, do not hit or ill treat captives, etc this is what helped the communist recruit the peasants, why he did so well in the north. I found Jiang to be very nationalistic (maybe that is why he is a Nationalist) It is the Chinese against the Japanese…the Chinese will free Formosa and Korea, and along the way if Tibet or outer Mongolia wants to be free, great of course there is that option. To me Jiang was saying the right thing to gain support against the Japanese however, it was not enough to gain the support of the peasants in the north, against the communist; he did not put meat on the table, did not help during the famine. When people are starving, homeless, and beaten they do not care about politics as much as how am I going to get food for my family, a warm place to sleep, shelter from the cold.
It is the Oral Histories that tell the real story of China’s peasants. As I read these stories I find it difficult to grasp the severity of the plight of these people. I can see how the communist party would appeal to them. The story Wang Fetching tells is heart wrenching. Here were people with very little and troops would come in and take what they wanted leaving very little fro the villagers. The selling of children, to prevent them from starving or to raise money so the rest of the family would not starve, shows such despair.
When we study history we spend a great deal of time reading about the Mao’s and the Jiang, but sometimes to truly understand history we need to study the plight of the people the ordinary citizen, in order to get a true grasp a true understanding of the situation and its significance
AnonymousI'd like to know more about Liu Shaoqi as a person. The internet said that he was president of the People's Republic of China for 10 years before his death in 1969. So how did he go from being one of the founders of the communist party in the 1920's, and then rose to become the president for nearly 10 years, before being allowed to die in prison during the last year of his life?
Also, the reading mentioned the founding of the communist party came from 14 delegates from 6 cells. I've never heard of "cells" before the 2001 terrorist attacks, and I'm wondering if the use of this word is similar in context, or completely different to the secrecy that surrounds the “cells” of today?
Finally, I never realized that the "Red Gaurd" units were made up of students as young as middle school students. I'd like to know who started with that idea, Mao or the students.
AnonymousSophia - liked your comments about the peasants being demoted to second class citizens. Before reading this selection on the Hukou System, I had no idea about the "assignments" people are given or the desparities between different groups as far as government support. Being "assigned" a place in society like this smacks of modern serfdom. You can leave, but you have to have permission of those at your destination. Perhaps this isn't Stalin's starvation of the peasants in the Ukraine to support the industrial proletariat , but it sure is its baby brother. So, the favored industrial areas have welfare support systems in place, but not the rural areas. Is this a communist equal society? I know that China is not communist now, but weren't they striving for that in the past?
AnonymousPlease, I want to know more about the Hukou System. I'm so ignorant in regards to Chinese communism; I had never heard of this, and to the best of my knowledge, it's not mentioned in my classroom text. It sounds almost like a government controlled caste system. Is there graft involved in obtaining nongzhuanfei?
In the "Melody in Dreams" selection, Liang Xia states, "Since her husband had just been promoted to be a deputy minister and their block of flats is for ministers, ordinary people like me shouldn't be living there." Is this a reference to the Hukou System?
I'm definitely going to try and get my hands on the entire article regarding this unfortunate system. Has there been any attempts by Chinese reformers to abolish it?
AnonymousI plan to specifically use two documents from this portion of my reading with my American literature students. First, Mao's quotations about China, reflecting everything from politics to art and culture; and second, American quotations about China. What a great lesson on perspective! I always try to ingrain in my students the idea of a narrator, and his or her point of view influencing his perspective of events. These compilations of quotes could be paired very effectively to illustrate this point.
AnonymousIt seems that there was so much potential good, but also so much potential tragedy with the revolution in China. Revolutionaries ended footbinding, expanded opportunities for women (or one could say doubled their work- mother and worker now), wanted to free slave girls, redistributed land, etc. Generalissimo Jiang even talks about respecting the national identity of Mongolia and Tibet. Yet despite these reforms (and I guess recognizing the national identity of minorities within China never manifested), there was too much idealism and too much rhetoric about war. Mao constantly talks about war and class conflict and although this is at the heart of the communist movement, I wonder if he really had the people's livelihood at heart. Reading the oral history from Houhua Village, I got a glimpse of the utter dispair of the Chinese peasant. I can't believe that the communists really thought total land redistribution would solve the hunger and poverty problem. Were the peasants going to be capable farmers? Wouldn't their small farms lack the benefits of economy of scale? Is putting the most loyal communist in charge of a collective farm really going to create a successful farm? I understand why these reforms were popular, but I can see why they spelled a somewhat disaster. After watching the movie Not One Lost and reading the oral histories, I am really stunned by the utter poverty of many Chinese throughout history and up to today.
AnonymousThe reading from this section was especially important for me to read because it goes along with the standards. The “Ridding China of Bad Customs” is easy to break into sections and have students read, respond and share with the class. I feel that my students would be interested in this article. I will also be able to incorporate “Liu Shaoqui-The Communist Party” as a document based reading. This really illustrates the forming and beliefs of the Communist Party in China. I can also excerpt the “Red Guards” and “Victims” readings. These would both very accessible to my students.
AnonymousThe reading from "Ridding China of Bad Customs" would be very useful in teaching a topic within the late 1800s-early 1900s dealing with China. I could divide the students into groups with each topic given in the article; and the students could read and discuss within their group. Then, each group could teach the other groups what they discovered were the three main Chinese customs that reformist believed needed illiminated so China could be militarily strong. This is very useful as a piece to read when dealing with the Chinese Opium wars also. The effects of the opium on Chinese history would be evidenced in this reading.