July 29 - Session 1 - Dube - War and Revolution in China - Evaluations

[Rob_Hugo@PortNW]

Hi everyone,

Please share your thoughts about our July 29 morning session, "War and Revolution in China," by Clayton Dube by replying to this post.

-Miranda

[Anonymous]

I know Mao made his troops pledge to not pillage and take advantage of peasants but in many of the readings under war and revolution, I found Mao's tone to be hawkish. So many of his quotes show a willingness for war and struggle and that even if peasants can't read, they can learn to fight. Considering the utter dispair of villages (oral histories from Houhua Village), the added talk of struggle and war seems inevitable but I just wonder if there is any strength left for that struggle.

I also wonder what happened to Generalissimo Jiang's feelings on national identity. He said that China should respect Mongolia and Tibet's national identity/soveignty/autonomy, but that sentiment seems to have evaporated. I'm not sure why or when????

[Anonymous]

I learned more about the Taiping Rebellion. I hadn't really thought about the rebellion in a larger context before. It seems obvious now that there was a collectivism aspect to the rebellion that the Communists would find appealing. I also didn't realize the extent of the casualties.

Would like to know more about the Muslim Revolts that took place in Yunan.

[Anonymous]

I have to wonder if had the Chinese government been better prepared it would have made a difference with regards to Imperialists coming in and making demands. Would it have started a "world" war had they been prepared. As we know many of the European countreis were interested in China for their own various interests. What lengths would we have gone to in order to get our piece of the pie. The following iage is just one a found that illustrates the interest in China by those other countries.
https://jspivey.wikispaces.com/file/view/China_imperialism_cartoon.jpg

[Anonymous]

As a factor leading to rebellion/reform, I am still interested in the notion of the 'expansive west' vs. tradition-bound China. My 'what if' thinking wonders if China's leaders couldn't have found a way to make this work for them better sooner, rather than succumbing to exploitation with opium trade.

Again, contingency/serendipity certainly seemed to be at work with the origins of the Taiping rebellion in so far as the 'heavenly' kingdom being a product of Hong Xiuquan's likely mental illness.

Enjoyed the references to CiXi. Students have asked, "was the Empress Dowager good or bad for China". I would like to learn more about her complex role to be able to answer this question better than "yes and no".

[Anonymous]

Hi,
I asked Clay a question during the break, and I think that he may address it in more detail later, but I asked about the extent of the Opium use among the Chinese, and I wanted to know how far it's use and abuse extended into the leadership of the military and bureaucracy, and although he didn't have the time to answer how for the opium use extended among the "classes,” he did say that about half of the men in China were using Opium during that time period.
Since the population of China was around 450 million in 1850, and probably half of that were men (225 million) that would mean that roughly 112 million men were using opium during that time. So I'm thinking that would probably have some bearing on their clarity of their thinking and policy making during that time.
I would still like to know how the opium use did, or did not affect, the policy makers, and their decisions during that time period. Perhaps we'll have some discussions about it tomorrow.

[Anonymous]

I should not have been surprised to discover that the Chinese, in their attempts to reform and strengthen themselves, used some tactics the Japanese had during the Meiji Era. My group focused on the reading of Liang Qichao. Liang did what the Meiji emperor had his diplomats do in the mid-late 1800s, which was to go to a foreign country, study their society, and report back. Liang visited New York City and seemed both inspired and horrified by what he saw. The organization of the city and the determination of its inhabitants to live lives with purpose seemed to be what impressed him most, while the crime and disproportionate distribution of wealth upset him. I wonder how much of an impact exactly his findings had back home in China. Did the government of the Dowager Empress make any moves to modernize based on his findings, or did they ignore it? Since this was around 1903, her time was short and the Manchu government had less than a decade of life left, so I am not sure what they could have done, even if they took aspects of the American system seen by Liang and put them into place in their own society.

[Anonymous]

Re.: Taiping Rebellion. A few of us were talking about how this is sometimes missing from our World History texts. If it is mentioned it doesn't usually have the death toll. My text I have now is the first one that gave my students this information and a little background on Hong and his view/message that he was the brother of Jesus. I would like to know more about how the European missionaries reacted to him. Did they support the dynasty in the suppression of this rebellion as heresy? When talking to our students, if we explain that as many died during this rebellion as died during World War II, it might hit home for them.

[Anonymous]

As professor Dube said, China has been through a lot of "internal disorders and external threats." Based on a collective experience that Chinese people shared with one another, it is undeniably clear that Chinese people, just like everyone else, use their collective human efforts to solve the problems that they have to deal with. And it has been a painful, but rewarding payoff process to see various revolutionary stages actually occurred in Chinese land.

Another issue brought to my attention during this morning session is that do the Chinese people even to this date consider themselves "a heap of sand" " target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://www.digitalphoto.pl/foto_galeria/1076_2004-0848.jpg ??? Or are they consider themselves something else? The image that Doctor Sun Yat-sen brought up so powerful that I wonder what my students will think? I wonder what others would think about it?

It will be a long way for the Chinese people to reach the golden age of Tang Dynasty. After all the image of the glory of Tang Dynasty is also imprinted in their mind as well. julie

[Anonymous]

Today’s focus on China gave me a clearer understanding of the Rebellion period. The concept of Internal Disorder / External Disorder helped to clarify events and cause/effect of certain events. Opium War and Opium War II and then Manchu Rule and Taiping Rebellion and of course the economy.

I always have known that there was a Taiping Rebellion, and I new it had something to do with the Chinese being unhappy with the foreigners, but I did not have a clear grasp of this event until today!

Hong Xiuquan failed at what he tried to do raise to the top thru the exam process…yet it is with his nervous breakdown that he is responsible for a civil war…aah is it
Contingency/serendipity?

[Anonymous]

As Clay was talking about the Reform Period, I have to wonder what would have been different if the reforms were not stopped by Ci Xi. What direction would China have gone in?
On a sidenote, was Ci Xi the Empress who was busy building some kind of boat out of ivory, or something just as odd? If I remember correctly, the question that was brought up was how much longer would the dynasty have lasted if Ci Xi would have done things differently with the "internal disorder, external threats" rather than showing off what could be done (the boat for ex.)?
Hearing the information today made me think of this.

Although the pictures were gruesome the reminder that rebellion's cost lives, and are just as important in trying to make a point, as a civil war that is won or lost; it also has innocent bystanders, was an important idea that Clay brought up.

[Anonymous]

It was very interesting how much influence students had in China during the May 4 Period. This was somewhat inspiring because it almost seemed like the students were willing to take a stand against the WWI peace treaty. The peace treaty and the controversy it creates also highlights the tension that existed between China and Japan.

[Anonymous]

You know I was also thinking when the nationalist party's leader was on Time magazine and adored by Americans, this could also be used against them. Foreigners that love this leader. This aspect may have also helped Mao and company gain influence over the anti-foreigner hysteria.

[Anonymous]

You make a very good point. What if the Communists used that American support to strenghten their cause, I think its a legitimate point.

In addition, for my world history class, I think I would concentrate on the theme of MONEY. Of coursem, you can't have money without trade, and in this case I would focus on the trade of Opium. I would break things down for research and discussion in the following ways:

Understanding the trade and Its Impact on the Chinese:

How did tradition bounf China:?
How did Opium symbolize China?
How did foreigners acculate ssso much wealth with little to no resistance?
How Did america profit from the Opium trade?

Etc :@

[Anonymous]

I was particularly interested in the topic of the Opium Wars in this session. One thing briefly considered was the effect that Opium had on the stereotyping of the Chinese in America. I think a good dose of America's fearfulness and dislike of the Chinese "celestials" had to do with many Chinese immigrants use of opium in 19th century cities. I wonder how many Americans at this time were aware that opium abuse was a consequence of European imperialism?

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