July 29 - Session 2 - Dube - Maoist China - Evaluations

[Rob_Hugo@PortNW]

Hi everyone,

Please share your thoughts about our July 29 afternoon session, "Maoist China," by Clayton Dube by replying to this post.

-Miranda

[Anonymous]

I really enjoyed this afternoon session, the information that we recieved filled in many gaps in my understanding of the Nationalist and Communist struggle in China. For example I had no idea that essentialy the two parties were the same in their construction. It was also interistin to hear the extent to which the USSR was involved in the conflict between the two, sort of like a parent admonishing siblings to play nice. This information is definetly going to improve my students understanding of Maoist China.

[Anonymous]

I agree with Sophia regarding the clarification of the origins and goals of the two parties, especially the fact that they were both Lenin-based. I think emphasis on the "confidence building/mobilization measures is key to understanding Mao's success. In contrast, Jiang's failure to build solidarity with society's poor along with his party's lack of organization to build base of support (and I assume eventual corruption?) make the outcome more understandable.
Penetrating pbotos today. Appreciate the many references to films as well.

[Anonymous]

I think Sophia noted exactly what many of us were thinking regarding the Nationalist and the Communist Parties. It was quite a shock to discover their roots were basically exactly the same. It makes me wonder what would have happened if Jiang remained close to those roots, had continued the concern for land reform and communalism. Would he have joined the communists more willingly or would he have been simply more able to build a larger and more powerful base of power? It is so very interesting to note, also, how amazingly close he came to eliminating the communists, were it not for that warlord from Manchuria who disrupted it. I doubt China would have been a communist country without the leadership of Mao, had Jiang successfully destroyed them when only 8,000 of them remained. I doubt Jiang would have been able to unite the country, however, given his lack of ability to unite those on his side and keep them fighting for him.

[Anonymous]

I think I agree with all of you. I never knew that the Guomintang were Leninist. Another query: We always hear or read about the corruption in Jiang's government. Did this go to the top? I have read jokes about Madame Jiang, and even in the film The Last Emperor Pu Yi's cousin calls her, Madame "Cash My Check." Was corruption directly tied to her or was this part of Mao's propaganda?

The push for language reform is similar to the late Middle Ages and early Renaissance when writers began to use the vernacular of their own countries rather than Latin. This made knowledge more available for people - yes, still a small number could read at the time, and the printing press will be just a few more years, but it was a first step.

[Anonymous]

As a old monk says that any capable person, good or evil, can change the way of history. It has been repeatedly proved that the image of a hero like Mao can live longer than his generation. Even to date many of mainland Chinese still live in the fear of being watched over by their acts. The spy system and strategic planning by the collective work team under Mao's rule have indicated that Mao is not only a very capable person, but he represents a image of the victims of those who wanted to do what he asked them to accomplish, no matter what. Even though they knew it would be morally wrong; even though numb as they were, they would take action against the landlords who were supposed to exploit their labor and slave them. I wonder it must be so horrified to be born during that period of time to suffer from irrational mental as well as physical torture from those "bandit-like" peasants. julie

[Anonymous]

This afternoon’s session covering the Population Pressures, Rebellions, New expectations Zone of privilege and Extraterritorially sets the stage for the internal conflict China faces in the early 1900’s.

Would Japan be able to invade China if there was not the conflict between the nationalist and the communist?

The story of the War Lord from Manchuria who kidnapped Jiang and the Soviets interference, along with the son of Jiang being held buy the Soviets was extremely interesting and something I was not aware of nor do I believe it is any textbook I have access to. In fact what I am finding in this seminar is that quite of the details we are being introduced to are not included in the text. This is the information that clarifies and makes history a little more interesting. I know with this information I will be able to help my students gain a better understanding of the communist take over of China.

[Anonymous]

I've found myself reading everyone’s comments (Threads) 2 and 3 times a night. I really like the way that everyone is able to read a comment from a fellow teacher, reflect upon those comments, and then add their own comments on the thread. I've never seen, or been a part of anything like this before. I just stopped to talk with my roommate about the use of this technology, and even though he is a bit younger, he hasn't used this technology in college before either. I'm thinking that this will probably be the future of graduate and under grad classes, but I'm wondering about its use among high school students... I really like the positive nature of the use of these forums, and it would allow those students who may be reluctant to make comments in class, the avenue to express their comments and thus boost their confidence and find their inner voice in the process.
...OK enough on that. Everyone's comments made me think about all of the times that I've heard about the corruption associated with Jiang Jieshi's government, and how much money he took from the American government and kept from himself and associates, and how we really didn't hear about any of that today. I'd like to know if it was true, and how much corruption was involved within his "government?"
I'd also like to know if anyone has used "forums" or "threads" at the high school level, and what degree of success was achieved. I'm thinking that I may explore this idea as part of my curriculum project.
See you tomorrow.

[Anonymous]

😐
The story of Japan's early rise to power and the subsequent slight by the Western countries at the Treaty of Versailles was all new to me. Makes sense that they would return the slight by ignoring the League of Nations.

Definately worth incorporating into the World History narrative.

In case you wanted to evaluate war crimes committed by all sides during WWII, here's the link to the Geneva Convention

[Anonymous]

Today's discussion on the Rape of Nanjing reminded me of a bumper sticker I had once seen that read, "I'd rather be historically accurate than politically correct." I think that often, especially with younger students, we tend to gloss over many of history's atrocities. Our students are very familiar with the injustices done by the U.S. to the American Indians and African-Americans, and to the Jews and others by Nazi Germany. However, they have very little knowledge of other human acts of cruelty and slaughter, save those they see on the nightly news.

Our job as history teachers is difficult because we have the task of trying to help our students make sense of the often-ugly past. We often walk the fine line between facts, perception (often more important than facts) and "appropriateness for classroom use." I remember many times thinking that a classroom lecture could come back and haunt me in the form of a parent complaint but I'm willing to take that chance to introduce students to a more complete narrative than just the one or two sentences in their texts. Just like today's lecture, one of my students will inevitably ask the question of why does man do these things to their fellow man, and just like Clay, I have to answer that I just don't know, but we can discuss some of the possibilities.

My sophomores usually come to me at the beginning of the year thinking the world is separated into "good guys" and "bad guys." I hope that by the end of the year, they understand that the world is filled with shades of gray.

[Anonymous]

I agree with you Sophia in regards to the lecture concerning the similarities between the Nationalist Party and the Communist Party. I hadn’t ever heard this linkage between the two regarding their similarity in much of their rhetoric. As Clay stated, "just take out a few words from the Communist's rhetoric and it could be the Nationalist's rhetoric."

Another segment in the lecture/discussion was concerned with the Americans and how they wanted to secure their slice of China as well as the other European countries. According to Clay the U.S. was late to China and so the Americans did not want the French, British, Germans, and other Western European countries to get more trading rights and control of China. There is a curriculum that I use called Teachers Curriculum Institute (TCI) and there is a lesson on how to teach the European scramble for Africa. That lesson could be adapted to the struggle for the trading rights as specified in the Open Door policy in China. I would have to read more about the policy to adapt it to the lesson found in the TCI material, but I am excited that I now have another strategy to teach about the Europeans and Americans scramble for Asia. I'm not concerned with using the same lesson strategy because it would be a great way to reinforce a previous lesson and then link it to another area of the world that was carved up by the Europeans and Americans.

If you need more details about TCI, you could ask me or you could just go on line and find it. I am excited to adapt what I learned in this session in order to bring the Open Door Policy of China to life with my students.

[Anonymous]

I am in total agreement with Caroline Owen and I couldn’t have said it better. I too think these exact sentiments about teaching the truth in historical issues within topics and at times fear that I will be reprimanded for following history closer to the truth.

As a teacher, we not only teach facts, but how vaious peoples have treated each other however good or bad. Ethical behavior is learned by modeling and discussion of what is right or wrong; as a teacher, it is my belief that teachers should teach history to learn from the past so we may do better in our own and international communities.

[Anonymous]

I agree with Sophia's comments regarding the afternoon session. I didn't realize that both the Nationalist Party and Communist Party used the same structure. I knew that the Communist Party was built on a Leninist model but was not as knowledgeable regarding the Nationalist Party. I also didn't know that they both mobilized against the Japanese. Overall, I really enjoyed the afternoon session.

[Anonymous]

The Maoist Era is one of my favorite topics about China. Usually the information I get about the Long March is a very romantic idea: people making a trek, knowing they might not make it, because it is what they believe, and in the end, they win, so it was worth the risk. Plus, the idea the Mao (the great leader) was no different than anyone else, when he was different, he got a horse.
I have heard Mrs. Chiang Kai Shek speak and have seen video of her. She was probably the most influencial person Chiang Kai Shek had to get US support. She was very western and knowledgeable.

[Anonymous]

The afternoon session was very interesting. I really had very little knowledge about the tension between the Nationalist and Communist party. While I understand that the land reform was critical, it has always been hard for me to stay forcused. It was great to finally be able to sit through it. I really enjoy learning about Maoist China. I have always been interested in the Red Guard and the role they played.

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