Legalism

[Anonymous]

I believe these are the questions we need to know for Monday. I found them in one of the readings. I posted them to remind me of what I need to prep for and include on my posts for this week. However, I might be missing some of the questions. I wasn't clear if these questions were supposed to be answered from our point of view or the philosophy that we are assigned to.

1) What is human nature? Are people generally inclined to do good or evil? If human nature is good, why do some people do evil?
As a Legalists, I do not care whether a child is born bad/good. However, I will use their selfishness and greed to my advantage if it also benefits me. This can mean working with them for a mutual cause or using my knowledge against them for my personal benefit. Will they be an asset to me or a threat? My interest is in a person’s selfishness covetous; I want wealth and fame.

2)Is education necessary or desirable? Define a "well-educated person. What would such people know or be able to know? How should such knowledge and skills be taught? As a Legalist, education is not necessary. Self-cultivation will not benefit me or any other individual.

3)To which people/institution should a person owe his/her loyalty. What is the nature and what are the limits (if any) of these obligations?
As a legalist, my loyalty is to my government. I do not worry about being moral or serving a god or gods. Every man for himself. I look out for me; you look out for you. I believe in our sociopolitical system; I am able to pursue my interests exclusively as long as it benefits the state. I can gain fame/riches through agriculture or through fighting battles (warfare). In order to be successful, proper administrative system should keep their officials submissive, yet allow them officials to benefit from ranks and emoluments. This way they fear possible punishments and will not want to overpower/overrule government. Everyone may be a suspect of causing possible harm.

4) What should the family provide the individual and what should it provide the society and the state?

5) Describe the ideal society and government's role (if any) in the society. Be sure to address issues such as social class, relations between people, sex roles, and qualifications/responsibilities of leaders.
To rule and control the people effectively, the government needs to be strict, extensive, and roles should be clearly defined. Expectations and roles have to be apparent in order to ensure that all people understand them. All people are the same. All are inclined to follow the path that will benefit them. Government positions should be properly staffed in order to ensure that jobs/positions are carried out properly. Once positions are staffed, they officials/individuals need to be monitored. This will allow government to make sure that their officials are always alert and trying their best.

(This scenario reminds me of a classroom environment. A teacher with poor classroom management will spend more time trying to gain control than teaching. Rules and expectations have to be easy to understand and remember. If students are not able to abide by such rules, a consequence should be implemented. Students need to be able to do their assignments. If they are having difficulties, a teacher should re-teach or switch student's assignments.)

6)What accounts for the troubles of the present day (late Zhou dynasty, Warring states period) and what should be done to improve the situation?
edited by malvarenga on 4/13/2015

[Anonymous]

As a debater for Confucianism, I am curious if people debating for Legalism think that this is the best type of religion for Society, Politics, and Economics, (and WHY)?
edited by slemburg on 4/13/2015

[Anonymous]

I think Legalism worked at the times it was created responding to the necessities of a changing society and controlling a larger land mass.Rather than rely on a few good people make everybody see the advantage of working towards a common goal and reaping the profits of a wealthy state.The fact that laws and rituals can be re-written to adapt to new situations is also important.

[Anonymous]

I was reading about Kerala in Southern India and about Jewish people living there since Roman Times and I found out the that between 500 to 1000 AD Jewish merchants called the the Radanites traded between the south of France ,Eastern Europe ,India and China.They were described as sophisticated people who spoke the languages of the people they traded with.They are credited with inventing the letter of credit and setting up settlements along their trading routes.

[Anonymous]

I do not think this is the best type of philosophy regarding religion. It seems very single sided to me. Morals were not a priority or even a care. It was all about government power. Many followed the laws due to fear of punishments; others genuinely wanted the wealth and were selfish (as the philosophy states).

As an individual, I do feel that it is important to have strict rules. However, in order to run a society smoothly, a government must give their people more that fear/punishment. Make the people proud to be part of that society and not afraid of expressing themselves.

Do you think that the philosophy you are debating for is the best type of religion for Society, Politics, and Economics, (and WHY)?

[Anonymous]

While reading about Legalism, Ebrey discusses how sage rulers enforced laws instead of moral influence (36) to ensure that the people knew right from wrong. With a legalist approach, rulers believe that society should be governed by laws, consequences and punishments. Legalist eliminate the concept of rituals and loyalty to the kings. This is breaking away from traditions, beliefs and habitual routines. Legalism is a very different from the other schools of thought. Although there have been changes, Legalism is an approach that applies to today’s society in many ways. The government has the ability to interfere and correct any mistakes completed by its citizens and enforce the law.

Although legalism is used to administer and govern societies, is this always the best approach to use to rule people? What about compassion and ruling a society with the best interest of the people?

[Anonymous]

Legalism, although harsh, it was what unified China to become great! As we discussed in lecture, neither of the philosophies by themselves could maintain order in China. Employing a little from each of the teachings helped to accomplish goals. Aren't modern societies mainly ruled by legalism?

[Anonymous]

Legalism is one of those things that we need but not necessarily want, minus the extreme punishment. I feel that legalism is part of our lives rules and guidelines are the essential base for a functional society. Law comes in hand with consequences and when a society lack of this basic order it will call for chaos.
Think traffic light and traffic control!

[Anonymous]

To answer the question that you asked about whether or not I felt the religion I was debating was the best in terms of economics, politics, and society...
I was debating for the "belief system" of Confucianism. I cannot say that I think this religion/ belief system is better than any of the other religions. I think that all 4 have very positive characteristics for expected behaviors in society. I personally am a big believer in strict laws and would agree with you that you cannot control an empire with the strict ideas of Legalism with too much emphasis on fear/punishment.
I do really respect the ideals of Confucianism in regards to family and respect, however, I can see why other religions would argue against its rigid hierarchy and extreme value of family above all else. I think that there needs to be balance. I think that it is very much possible to take aspects of each religion and use these ideals to rule an empire. I think that some characteristics of each religion can work with each other regardless of the contradictions. I think tolerance of individual religions is necessary for an expanding empire--at least it was successful for the Mongols for a short period of time.

[Anonymous]

Legalism was the ideal school of thought during the period of warring states. Strict focus and obedience were principles during this chaotic time. There was a lot of disorganization and a lack of focus. Its leaders needed to centralize governance and control. This allowed China to establish a strong state at the detriment of the individual. This obviously impacted creative thinking and religious beliefs. Many principles and doctrines of legalism/militarism have been studied and continued to be studied in China and the rest of the world.

[Anonymous]

Seeing how I am a newly self proclaimed Doaist. Legalism is too extreme! I think there should be flexibility if one must be punished. This would be an interesting view to bring up in a classroom to hear the students take on it.

[Rob_Hugo@PortNW]

Legalism emphasizes the importance of the law. Legalism is a philosophy that does not address higher questions pertaining to the nature and purpose of existence. The Legalist tradition (Legalism) derives from the principle that the best way to control human behavior is through written law rather than through ritual, custom or ethics. According to this philosophy, the ruler has to set strict laws for his people in order to govern a successful country. The ruler should govern his subjects accordoing to Fa, Shu, and Shi. Fa is law or principle; this means that all people are equal before the law. If his people do not abide by these laws, government shall deliver harsh punishment(s). If citizens do obey, they should be rewarded with official political positions. Shu is method, tactic, art, or statecraft. Government officials and people need not worry about being moral. Strategy was vital to ensure that the people or ministers will not try to overpower or over rule the leader. Shi is legitimacy, power, and/ or charisma. Position is the most powerful thing. Power is not held by a man. Power is entailed in the position. The Qin Dynasty’s central philosophy was Legalism, but as the years and decades passed, other philosophies blended or took over Chinese thought.
edited by malvarenga on 4/13/2015

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