november 1 session discussion

[Anonymous]

1. As a Daoist, I believe Clay should just let his father live his life and not worry himself over things like that. It will eventually work itself out. Keep it Simple.

2. Similarities between Chinese philosophies are that they all involve Confucianism, either being for it or against it, ultimately. Differences are that Mohism and Daoism are not for Confucianism in their ideas of the proper Way. Legalists agree with Confucianism but only as a tool to enforcing and manipulating people to do the right thing according to their ways.

As far as American tradition and values go, I would say that as a traditionally "Christian" nation, with a constitution based upon Christian ideals for the people and by the people, American Christianity has some things in common with Mohism, with loving one another. Daoism is compassionate, but also likes to keep it simple with not allowing ones desires to get in the way, just as Christianity suppresses man's desires for the righteousness of God's plan. Christianity also shares rules with legalism, having the 10 Commandments as the right laws and monitoring the ways of man.

The East Asian philosophies also share differences in the fact that Confucianism is about ancestor worship and filial piety, whereas, Christians worship only one God and who, according to the New Testament, they can also turn against their own family and leave them if they have to in pursuing "the Way, the Truth and the Life," which is what Jesus, as the Christ, who is the main person in Christianity, calls himself.

All of these philosophies and traditions are similar in that they believe that they are the one true "Way".

[Anonymous]

Clay should let his dad to be guided by the Daoist theory. First, it seems like his dad meddled with the natural balance in nature which has led to this state of guilty conscience. We, the Daoists, are well-aware that there is no crime greater than having too many desires. This seems to be a case of being misguided and since it has already happened, it should be handled with compassion and benevolence of all concerned. As such, the authorities should be sparing and "employ the light of reason". Order and harmony will prevail if no extreme action is taken in this matter. A soothing word of advice will ensure that the person will not feel like a criminal but will be able to achieve harmony with his surroundings.

[Anonymous]

As a Moist, Clay would not do anything drastic in regards to dad. He loves his dad but at the same time doesn't believe that he should receive preferential treatment. Clay would work with his dad in a loving way in order for him to correct his path of behavior.

Although Philadephia is "the ciity of brotherly love", we (Americans) don't exactly follow the idea of "universal love". We like to think of ourselves as impartial as the law is applied. Not all problems can be fixed with love. If you break the law, there are consequences.

[Anonymous]

Clay should let his father be guided by the philosophies of Confucius. In this philosophy behavior is harmonious and by no means should we disrespect our elders
because in Confucianism the child should always defer to the father.

In our society, everyone theoretically is treated the same regardless of their age,wealth,or stature.

[Anonymous]

If Clay were a Daoist, he would suggest his father go on a retreat and think things through on his own. Clay would not suggest anything more than that. His father will find the way eventually, or the way will take care of his father's case.

I grew up in China, respecting parents and elders and repay them is inbedded in our culture. I haven't seen it very much practiced here in the US.

As a a Daoist, I thought of Amish to be a similar group for their believe of the simplicity of life in natural world. Yet, one has to be born as a Amish. While you can choose to be a Daoist.

[Anonymous]

If Clay honored the Confucius ways, I would tell him to respect his father for his father is superior to him in the Confucius hierarchy of relationships. He must honor and respect his father and take his secret to his grave.

American society is one based on laws and structure. Our country is structured on the principles of the Constitution. The Constitution is written in a way where it can be amended and interpreted to the benefit of the states or national government. ("elastic clause") We are a democracy where we elect leaders to represent our thoughts and ideas. I would say our society has similarities with both the Moists and the Legalists. We emphasize order an authority in a practical matter where the greater good of society is concerned over individual families or groups. ("The Tea Party" would disagree. I would say they relate most to the Daoists frame of thought ( a reaction to authority and traditions). We also have rules and consequences as the Legalists enforced in China. However, the law can be amended and citizens are given the right to a jury and due process of law.

[Anonymous]

As a Mohist I believe Clay believes that his father was at fault. This is the primary reason why Mohism failed Mo Zi was fighting an uphill battle when it came to having issue with family and the benefit of one's family.
In American culture I believe that the Hippie Movement in the 60-70's is very similar to the Mohist pjilosophy. The NRA and/or the KKK are similar to the Legalist philosophy. The current Tea Pary movement is somewhat similar to the Daoist philosoply.

[Anonymous]

Clay is caught. He will have to resign himself to disappointing someone: Clay or his dad. He might be able to gauge who would be most offended, but I doubt he has that sort of wisdom to determine if his society will be much damaged if his father is or is not turned in. He is a Confucian, so he should redefine a successful outcome as a good son should.

Americans are individualistic, support property rights, and believe in a legal framework that places the law above those in power. They also believe in democracy, equality, and can be very religious. I see only only a few attributes of Chinese philosophy that cohere to American values. With that in mind, as an "american", I see nothing of value in Confucious except, for some americans, the authority of the "heavenly mandate". I am suspicious of Mohism and their emphasis on the practical (who determines that?). The Daoist toleration for individuals is positive, but their comfort with a "ruthless sage" is repulsive. The Legalist prescription for curing the ailments of a society presumes the worst instincts of humans and requires enforcement mechanisms no american would long endure.

[Anonymous]

If Clay is to follow the letter of Legalist philosophy, he must, as cruel as it may be, indict his father. In order for the state to thrive and remain strong, any notions of benevolence and filial piety must be discarded. Such acts of magnanimity will only betray order and stability. Choosing his father over the law of the land would mean going down a slippery slope of petty loyalty. As Han Fei Zi argues, "To practice petty loyalty [is to] betray a larger loyalty." If Clay chooses to turn a blind eye - and such actions are followed en masse - the state's downfall is almost surely guaranteed.

The first step in addressing the second question posed is defining what is meant by American traditions and/or values. This, I believe, is the tricky part. The traditions and values I hold as a first generation Latino living in Los Angeles differ (slightly in some cases, immensely in others) from someone living in, say, the rural Midwest. However, if one looks hard enough, one can find elements of all four schools of thought in "American" culture/society. Forgive my generalizing, but when I think of the Pacific Northwest and California (the idyllic, stereotypical portraits of its vibe and peoples), I can't help but think about the Dao flowing through. Or even as qhuang stated, taking a look at early (and contemporary) utopian communities and one can totally find Daoist values that have permeated American society. When looking at Confucian philosophy, we see plenty of examples of hierarchical relationships in our society (for better or worse) and a strong sense of familial duty (though some would argue that the degree is stronger or weaker depending on one's culture). And are we not a land of laws? One of the ideals of our modern American democratic system is the belief in the rule of law. Sure, the reality often differs from the ideal, but at least on paper, aren't we all subject to the law? And is this not in line with Legalist thought? Of course, a staunch Legalist wouldn't care for that little thing called the 8th Amendment regarding cruel and unusual punishment, but you know what I mean. In the end, there certainly do exist some elements of the philosophies that we have been studying that are ingrained in our American traditions and values. They may vary in degree and look a bit different with a western hat on, but they are there.

[Anonymous]

A Legalist would say that he has to report his father. The father's wrongdoing is proof that he, like all people, is inherently bad and needs to be punished. He will then serve as an example so that other people see the consequences of breaking the rules. Additionally, Legalism encouraged spying and intelligence networks, so it would be in line with the philosophy's views for a son to turn in his father.

The American legal system has some commonality with Legalist views. Some of our laws and punishments are designed as threatening disincentives. The death penalty, for example, can't bring back the victim but it makes the perpetrator "pay for" the crime. Three strikes laws, too, while well intentioned, reflect a belief that certain people are inherently bad.
edited by alevel on 11/8/2011

[Anonymous]

As a legalist, it is necessary that Clay report what his father did, and even report his father to the police. His father broke the law, and it is Clay's duty as a member of our society to bring in perpetrators that break the law. Clay's reward will be that he will not be punished for keeping information from the authorities.

In US culture, I agree that the US Supreme court and the legal system in general is somewhat like the legalist school of thought in that people are punished by going to jail or have to finish community service if they are found to be guilty of a crime. However, our judicial system is much less harsh than the legalist point of view. I think Mohism reflects the 1960s/70s "hippie love" era, where people should reject authority and instead love everyone.

I unfortunately think that the Daoist belief of getting rid of all material things is completely opposite of what america believes. Christmas and Halloween are the largest holidays in this country based solely upon buying stuff- presents, decorations, candy, costumes, etc. I also hope that we don't follow the Daoist belief of getting rid of teachers, but in a way we are with online classes and degrees.

[Anonymous]

1. what should Clay do about his father?

Clay is a Mohist and he should turn his father in for breaking the law. Mo Zi emphasized discipline and authority as the answer to the chaos of his era. This philosophy would extend into the family unit as well. Similarly, Mo Zi said it is the business of the benevolent man to try to promote what is beneficial and to eliminate what is harmful. The benevolent man should do this without partiality or competition. Thus, Mo Zi would treat his father as he would any other citizen who had broken the law. His father would be subject to whatever penalties the law imposed for someone convicted of a particular crime. In Mo Zi’s view, when the good are rewarded and the evil punished, the state is in order.

2. what similarities or differences can you identify between Chinese philosophies we've explored and whatever you identify as American traditions or values

The Legalists sound like very conservative, Republican-minded Americans who believe that strict laws are the answer to all of society’s ills. Strict laws also serve to promote the interests and protect the property of these individuals, who tend to own more wealth than the average citizen. Legalists also support strong military-complex states because they usually are involved in some sort of imperialistic behavior when it comes to their interaction with the rest of the world. These are the proponents of “three strikes and you’re out” laws in the United States. They also own the prisons, which have been privatized and need more customers.

The Daoists seem to have little or no belief in the virtue or value of mankind. That’s why they seek to amuse and confuse man with some mythical “way”, much like Adam Smith’s invisible hand, the Dao is an Illuminati-type figure lurking behind the scenes controlling everything. The Dao wants people to follow a simple way while he lives in luxury. But how would we really know, because if we know the way, then we are really lost. So get rid of those GPS devices. The Daoists sound like a lot of American TV evangelists who preach simplicity and virtue but don’t really want the public to see “The Way” they really are.

The Confucians try to elevate certain relationships, making them sound like Social Darwinists with their endless string of hierarchies. No doubt a true Darwinist would get rid of old Confucius (survival of the fittest) and his outdated hierarchies and realize that all hierarchies have their limitations. One thing is true about Confucius: he was not an innovator. He seems to have been a student of Lao Zi, who didn’t believe his writings were worthy of publication. So why should we? Today, American youth would give little credence to the ideas of Confucius, or even their parents for that matter. Perhaps that’s why Confucianism is on the rise in America. The old guard is seeking a return to the old ways and old values. Unfortunately, we’ve already gone through the Civil Rights and Feminist movements, so no such return is imminent.

[Anonymous]

!. How should Clay respond after discovering that his father had broken the law?

As a Legalist, my initial response was that he should immediately report his father to the authorities for punishment. Legalist are taught that for a society to thrive and be successful (i.e. to feed it's people and defend it's boarders), everyone must have a clear understanding of their roles in society. This is reinforced by having a strict set of laws and corresponding punishments and any infraction of the law. Laws apply to everyone, without exception, and Clay should know that he has a responsibility as a Legalist to report his father.

That being said, I am somewhat uncomfortable with my own interpretation because I think even a strict legalist would suffer from extreme cognitive dissonance when faced with the responsibility of turning-in his own father for punishment, given the long tradition of Confucianism underlying Chinese philosophy and thought. The relationship between father and son is very strong and I'm not sure that Legalist training will always be able to overcome this relationship.

2. Similarities or differences with American tradition?

It interesting that under the American justice system, the 5th Amendment protection against self-incrimintation protects a spouse from being forced to testify against their mate but does not protect a child from being forced to testify against a parent. I think a Legalist would have less problem during in a child rather than a father.

[Anonymous]

1. As a Legalist, I feel that you should turn in your father because he violated the law and he must be punished.You ultimately owe your loyalty to the state, rather than to your father, because if everybody looks the other way when one of their family members commits a crime then we will have chaos in our society.
2. Under our legal system here in CA it feels as if the Legalist are in charge because people get punished severely for having more than three strikes. Life in prison for exceeding three strikes rule seems a bit harsh. Our police chief seems to have a broken windows policy, in which people must be punished for even the smallest crimes (most Legalist would love this policy). What the American systems lacks is not law and order, but equality in punishment. It seems that although Americans are for law and order, they are not for fairness. It seems that the rich get better treatment than the poor, but Shang Yang would disagree with this, because he felt that everybody must be punished equally, in fact he lost his life for punishing the wrong people.

[Anonymous]

2. As a Moist, in American society I've seen some similarities with this particular Chinese philosophy. Of the many American Indian nations it is fair to say their philosophy of keeping peace amongst groups was a very Maoist approach. This is not to say American Indian nations didn't go to battle from time to time but the emphasis of keeping peace and treating each other as they would treat their own people was and continues to be seen throughout what is now the U.S. As a matter of fact, the Wampanoags greeting the Pilgrims, in the first initial meeting between those Natives and Europeans, was a friendly encounter whereby the Wampanoags could have easily crushed the weak Pilgrims trying to survive in the "New World." The Natives approached the situation in a very Moist way by providing security/protection from other more aggressive Native groups who might have seen the Pilgrims as some form of threat. The Wampanoags definitely followed the Moist philosophy.

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