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AnonymousI loved this session! I learned so much! The thing that really struck a cord was how many themes from the George Orwell's book 1984 were present in what is happening in China. I was shocked to find out that the Chinese government is control the past to control the present and the future by erasing facts from their books and even news papers. How they incarcerate people who oppose the party, just like Orwell's book. I think a way to make an interesting discussion in a classroom would be to have students think about how exponentially the Chinese economy has grown since the party took over of the country and ask them if it has been worth the censorships that the government has put in place in order to put the China as one of the greatest super power of the world within 50 years. Maybe even compare and contrast how the US came to be a super power which route would student have picked.
AnonymousSomething that I thought was interesting was when Louisa Lim, the writer of the People’s Republic of Amnesia, brought up the photo of “tank man” at Tiananmen Square and asked who had or had not seen the image before. It was pretty obvious that many history teachers have seen the photo and only a few people of maybe 50 had said they were not familiar with it. What surprised me was when she compared that to asking the same question to students at a Chinese University and 85% of the students could NOT tell WHERE the photo was taken. That was just shocking to me. When she further explained the censoring of online material and the attitudes towards the event and this sense of trying NOT to remember essentially the MASSACRE or “the incident” it just really surprised me. This was something that I was totally unaware of.
Something that also perked my attention was the Google search for “Tiananmen Square” and the first image that pops up is “tank man.” Then she did a Baidu search, which is China’s search engine equivalent to Google and it has nothing of the 1989 protests. This really reminded me of a situation in my classroom where I had visitors that were both teachers and students from China (as we have visitors every year) and we were actually talking about “Communism in China” and the students couldn’t stop looking around my room and at the images on the walls and in the PowerPoint and the discussion was a bit distracting and I asked them a question about basic freedoms to browse online. It really was an eye opener not just for my students, but also myself when one of the teachers said, they could NOT use the pictures I was showing as they would NOT be able to find them online. It opened up a discussion where the students went on a tangent as to what is blocked, which was pictures of any guns, information on suicide, how to make a bomb, to even various sites, search engines, and social media..the list was long. One of my students asked WHY? The response of the student was that it was blocked because it was harmful to them. My student asked if they were ok with these things being blocked and when the Chinese students said YES my students were so shocked and could not believe that they were basically living with censorship and upset about it. It made for a real interesting discussion and something my students will never forget.
AnonymousProfessor Lim’s lecture was one of my favorite ones in this series. I really did feel like I was listening to a podcast on NPR! It was interesting to learn how the government has done everything possible to not talk about or advertise the events of 1989 in Tiananmen [font='Century Gothic']Square. I was especially intrigued with the story on the Tiananmen mother, and her work on how to get information on her son and what happen to him. This would be an interesting story to share with students, in order to humanize this event for students, and really have them get an inside scoop into the everyday lives of those affected by this event. I also found it interesting how it was taboo to talk about these events to this day, and how the Professor shared her experiences on what it took to get the information for her book.[/font]
edited by jenniferlopez on 12/7/2015
AnonymousAfter Professor Lim's lecture, I looked more into the Tiananmen mothers and found some interesting resources we could share with our students:
http://www.pri.org/stories/2015-06-03/everyone-knows-what-happened-tiananmen-1989-except-chinese
AnonymousThis past Saturday’s session was extremely informative. I had no idea of what happened in Tiananmen Square, I hadn’t even seen that picture of the “tank men”. Both Dr. Lim and Mike Chinoy were amazing. I was barely born when all this was going on in China, when I studied history in school I never heard of any conflicts in East Asia, I probably only knew the capital of a few countries and their location. While I was watching that documentary I was shivering, listening to the journalist testimonies; their bravery, their passion, and the fact that they were still alive to narrate their odyssey and still fight for the truth is striking me at this very moment.
Massacres like the one in Tiananmen, and I call it massacre because this is what it was, happened in all of Latin America throughout the 19th century (and they are still occurring until this very day). Journalist who wanted to cover or even mention these atrocities ended up been tortured and killed, thousands of students “disappeared” (tortured, dismembered, and thrown to the sea), families were destroyed and never saw justice. It is imperative that our students know about these slaughters and oppressive governments and learn to take action. They need to know that every threat against any community is in reality a threat to humanity, the violation of human rights is not permitted at any level and it needs to be denounced.
I’m planning to integrate Tiananmen Square to my curriculum when I start talking to my students about economic and social conflicts in Latin America. They can compare what happened in China to the massacre that occurred in Mexico City in Tlatelolco Square in the fall of 1968 and write an essay or do a presentation on the violation of human rights and oppressive governments.
AnonymousThose posters in Tiananmen Square were a sign of rebellion to the government but at the same time they were a prediction of the massacre. Students were condemning China’s officials; they were exposing the corruption and irregularities that were taking place in the so called People’s Republic of China. Protesting about the harsh living conditions, lack of food, and revealing that “children of officials violate the law and run wild, but the law barely touches them” was an attack to the government who was not going to flee but fight. Even though the students did not mean to overthrow the communist party and only ask for reformation, this could have not ended peacefully. The last straw was the shaming of officials while Russia’s president visiting the country. There is nothing worse than belittling your own ruler in front of a longtime rival, that demonstration no matter how peaceful it was gave the government grounds for retaliation.
My questions are what and how can all these people that are oppressed fight this oppression? We saw all the violence in Tiananmen over 25 years ago and we still see it all around the world at this time, the same atrocities repeating themselves over and over.
AnonymousOne of the things that struck me most about Louisa Lim's presentation was the lack of of knowledge about Tianamen Square and June 4th and what happened on that day. I came across this article from the New Republic about how Chinese view the Tianamen Square event (interesting read). :+D
AnonymousWhat a treat to hear Louisa Lim speak! I was shocked to hear how few Chinese youth could identify the Tank Man picture. I also found it very interesting that people keep trying to remember the 4th and the banned word list keeps getting longer! Each year, Chinese mourning flowers, birthday candles, even the word "nostalgia", disappear from the internet as people try to use these words or symbols to remember the massacre. It's insane that as recently as last year, 115 - very different - people were detained for remembering Tiananmen: a Buddhist monk and the people he was lecturing, a young factory workie who took a selfie at the square. Not to mention, the poor mother who is not allowed to visit her son's grave and "remember" him in public. I'm so glad Louisa had the courage to tell this amazing story.
edited by khumphreys on 12/7/2015
AnonymousSaturday's seminar was excellent as usual! I enjoyed the journalist who presented for us about Tiananmen Square. I vaguely remember this event since I was in junior high school. Students at that age do not pay much attention to world events. The first account form Mr. Mike Chinoy were impacting. As I listened, I wonder if I could have done that job, knowing the dangers that it has. He brought interesting points about the events that took place. The news outlets did an excellent job at broadcasting as much as they did.
The film was excellent. It is very informative. Everyone in the world should watch it. I for sure made fully aware of what occurred on June 4th, 1989. It is unfortunate that we don't know exactly how many casualties there were.
Louisa Lam, the journalist, the author and professor, was fantastic. It was great to hear her narrative. What impressed me the most was the many sleepless nights she went thought to make some of the decisions that she had to make in order to tell all the stories of her sources, were very difficult.
AnonymousSo there happens to be a Wikipedia page on the term "massacre" to help us decide if the word is appropriate. Whereas "mass murder" has a distinct minimum amount of people as defined by the FBI ([font=sans-serif]three or more persons during an event with no "cooling-off period" between the murders, the Boston Massacre could still fit this), a massacre is simply defined by having a "significant number" (Wikipedia) or "many people" (Merriam-Webster).[/font]
[font=sans-serif]Five Bostonians were killed in the Boston Massacre, that number was still "significant" enough to become a catalyst of the revolution. [/font]
Regarding the killings at Tiananmen Square, we can look further into Wikipedia's description. we have from Robert Melson [font=sans-serif]"by massacre we shall mean the intentional killing by political actors of a significant number of relatively defenseless people". This seems to fit perfectly. However there are some interesting descriptors by Mark Levine that the Chinese government might choose to embrace. He states that "[/font][font=sans-serif]massacres are not carried out by individuals, but by groups... the use of superior, even overwhelming force..." Sounds like T[/font]iananmen. However Levine states that to use the term massacre it is[font=sans-serif] "...most often ... when the act is outside the normal moral bounds of the society witnessing it... In any war ... this killing is often acceptable.[/font][font=sans-serif]"[/font] If the protest movement is framed as a counter-revolution, then the killings in Tiananmen Square were part of the war. And if the society that witnessed it is convinced that the killings were within the moral bounds of the government, then the society can be convinced that the term massacre does not apply. It would be very difficult to make the claim that the majority (if not all) of the the people killed were not "relatively defenseless".
It is interesting that the "tank man" in the video is carrying shopping bags with him, as if he was just out doing his weekly shopping and noticed there are tanks in the street. It certainly adds to the every-man image of grassroots protest. A man carrying shopping bags in the city represents everyday life while tanks in the city do not.
We do not need a "tab" of three or four digit numbers to determine whether the term "massacre" is appropriate. We just need to confirm that those who were killed were unable to fight back, which was well beyond likely the case.
edited by dhorowitz on 12/7/2015
AnonymousIt was an incredible experience watching this documentary - and then discussing the events with the lead reporter, Mike Chinoy! Wow. I can't imagine witnessing this heartbreaking piece of history. The lead-up to documenting the incident is incredible. China lets foreign news crews in for Gorgachev's welcoming ceremony. The ceremony in the square is cancelled. All these reporters and cameras are front and center to witness the thousands of demonstrators demanding political change, and then the subsequent declaration of martial law and violent crack down. Hearing firsthand about how the massacre played out, the iconic Tank Man picture was captured, the rolls of film smuggled out (and so much more) was an experience I'll never forget.
AnonymousI'm a huge NPR nerd, so getting to hear Louisa Lim speak was a dream for me. I remember learning about Tiananmen Square, and include it in my curriculum each year for World History, but it had never occurred to me to examine how the event is remembered (or not remembered) in China. Like others have said, I was shocked to discover how suppressed memories are from Tiananmen Square. I was equally appalled to learn of the stories from Chengdu and the activist mothers trying to fight for their right to memorialize their own children. Overall, I walked away with a better understanding of the mentality of young people in China today compared to the reforms called for by the student protesters at Tiananmen. While China may have experienced major progress in terms of economic gains for the middle class since 1989, it's clear that in terms of government transparency, political restructuring, and individual rights, they have a long way to go.
AnonymousYou're right about how the Mother humanized the Tiananmen story. History is very important in our society and if the Chinese are trying to forget what happened then we will not learn from our mistakes. I think the "mother" would make a better story to learn from rather than just throwing out facts of the event. Maybe the Chinese/ our class rooms will use that story in the future to see the atrocities that humans commit for political gain and control.
AnonymousLooking back at my notes from this day I found an interesting note I took about USA media reporting on the event. The note I wrote was about how in mix of reporting there was false report broadcasted to the US public due to lack of fact checking at the Tiananmen Square. The reportes thought that the report made sense at the time and did not bother to check with other sources so they sent it in because they felt it was necessary to maintain the people in the USA informed as soon as possible. ( I sadly didnt write down what it was so if anyone remembers please help) but the point is that thanks to social media, people are now reporting things without fact checking. It seems like it is happening more often now then it used to and it's hurting what people are taking in as facts. I really liked how the reporters at the Tiananmen Square did after the wrong report. They took it back and made it right. So that could be a great teachable moment for students to reflect upon what the media is now in US.
AnonymousI don't know if anyone else has used This American Life in their classrooms, but my students love it. This past weekend's episode dealt with propaganda, and the fourth story (Act Four: Party On) covered the Chinese government's response to Tiananmen Square and the teaching of the "National Humiliation" of China at the hands of foreigners. It fits in perfectly with what we've covered in the course so far, and would be a great resource for high school students!
http://www.thisamericanlife.org/radio-archives/episode/575/poetry-of-propaganda