reaction/discussion - thurs am (dube)

[Anonymous]

The practice of infanticide and the high abortion rates were quite shocking to me. What was a bit more shocking to me was that it all seems like the norm and it's acceptable and/or encouraged.

[Anonymous]

I finally have a better understanding of the Population & Family Planning Law! Too bad China invested so much money in this policy, not realizing that all they needed was literacy and urbanization. It was interesting to see the correlations across different countries.

[Anonymous]

Charles' comments really got me thinking about the issue of abortion and how it is dealt with in various societies. First off let me say that I am a man, so that my comments are based on never having had a baby in my womb and anything I have to say about the matter is at best speculative. We had a little discussion at lunch about abortion and religion. I was projecting that in America, abortion is a big deal and carries all sorts of baggage with it, whether you are pro choice or pro life, and was wondering if in other societies it carries that same baggage. When do people in other societies consider life to start? We are all shocked about these numbers because of where our culture is at and we are projecting those values on a culture that may be different. I do not know what a woman in China or Korea feels like if she decides to have an abortion. Does she feel like she is forced to do it? How do religion and cultural views play into these feelings? I do not know and would probably hesitate to judge people for abiding by a different set of values. Now it says a lot to me that the governments of China, India and South Korea are passing laws against sex selection... but are they doing that because they view abortions as being bad or because they worry about the demographic skew that is taking place?

[Anonymous]

In today's China, there exists another group of sad and desperate people. They are the parents who lost their only child because of accidents or diseases. Many marriages are broken, and families fall apart. Some couples give birth to another child, and some of them are too old to bear a child. In Chinese culture, it is said that one of the three saddest tragedy is 老年丧子 (lao-nian-sang-zi, lose child when you are old). I am not sure whether the government has any compensation and/or supporting plan for this group of people.

[Anonymous]

I found the connection between urbanization, education for women, and birth rates to be surprising but totally intuitive once Clay gave us a clear explanation. I plan to introduce those concepts in some understandable form for my students. I'm sure there's a way that I can introduce one of those variables and lead my class to the rest of the factors through discussion.

[Anonymous]

With regards to family planning, infanticide, abortion rates, and sex selection in China---all to support the status quo, which is to keep in place patrilineal/patrilocal power and as Dube suggested, make for a rational "choice" given the option. There seems to be no social stigma attached to having an abortion, although certainly pressure to produce a male heir. Is this really power? When thinking about this topic in the US, women's reproductive rights depend on the courts and their interpretation on the law.

[Anonymous]

In Economics, it will be interesting to discuss why having boys in a lot of cultures has been, historically, preferred. Overtime, it has became interpreted as girls being inferior, however if you trace the roots to the practice, it becomes an economical decision since boys were the ones that would work and stay with the family all their lives (patrilocal) and provide for his parents when they were too old to provide whereas the girl would marry and join another family, thus proving a poor investment for the family. Not that I agree with the practice, but it's a great alternative view point in giving historical background to the cultural practice and beliefs towards women and its origin.

[Anonymous]

Just as there is a natural downward trend in family size linked to the developing status of a country's economy, urbanization, and gender equality in education, the patriarchal domination of China will subside the wealthier, more urbanized the country becomes. I was surprised that Mr. Dube did not mention Ms. Gong Haiyan when he checked off a list of women who are prominently shaping East Asia. She is a self-made millionaire who developed a wildly popular online dating service. This website alone is seemingly singlehandedly shifting the culture of China away from a society-centric focus and towards more of a self-centered disposition. One only has to watch Madeline Albright's interview on 60 minutes to fend off the proposition that the only logical conclusion one could make from the idea that a rise in female power in society is going to steer the country in a direction that possesses more humanity; but, in general, a significant contribution of matriarchal influence on society would shape it more humanely.

I know we have our issues in the U.S., but I found the news story a couple years back about the 2-year-old female child being run over twice in China to be stunning, particularly as it was revealed that many eyewitnesses did not rush to the aid of the child. The argument is that the passersby did not want to be held legally responsible for the child's ill-health on their watch. People spoke of recent precedent that punished good samaritans. We have some very callous folks in the U.S., but I find it hard to believe that people would just walk by the child without helping, even in our ultra-litigious society. Economic growth in China will destroy the malignancy of authoritarian patriarchal rule and disseminate a more empathetic ethic that would compel some to help others in need. But I'm not entirely sold on my own theory here either. I do kind of agree with Chris Hedges when he talks about the myth of human progress. Look at how brutal our society can be outside our borders, let alone inside them, as illustrated in Abu Ghraib, Nisour Square, Fallujah, which had nothing to do with 9/11.

We as teachers have a great responsibility to contextualize for our students the successes, productivity, creativity, humanity, and brilliance of East Asia to counteract the one-off stories such as the 2-year-old getting run over that get the most play in the news and become formative in imprinting negative stereotypes in the highly impressionable minds of our kids.

[Anonymous]

Some thoughts. The discussion we had of birthrates needs to be brought into our high school classrooms. Bringing this discussion into my classroom will pose some challenges but it will be possibly the only time that an adult will talk to them about this potentially thorny issue without trying to politicize it, or attack a side on religious grounds, or in some other way diminish the real people involved in the sorting out of this issue in both the US and in EA cultures. I think that Clay's comments that we need to contextualize this and remind our students that rational people can be found on all sides of these policies. It wont take much to remind your students that there are definitely irrational people on all sides of this issue as well. It might seem as though I am trying to steer towards a cultural relativism, and I am truly not. But I do think that if there is not a very serious effort to tone down the rhetoric surrounding this issue of a nations family planning policies or lack there of, we are doing a disservice to our kids by not letting them try and do some very serious heavy mental lifting.

Also, if you wait to have this conversation until you wrap your brain around the whole issue, you will never have this discussion. I think that staying away from this topic because you are afraid you might not be able to lead a great thoughtful consideration of the issue is a slippery slop that leads to it never making it into the curriculum. After having the discussion we had today and looking over Clay's slides, you need to realize you are probably the most qualified person your students are ever going to have at their disposal to help them understand these issues. Not sure if anyone needed that pep-talk besides me.

[Anonymous]

I was blown away by Professor Dube's assertion that the ultrasound machine was probably the most important invention that affected the population demographics of China, but it made sense after I thought about it. The device made it easier to detect the sex of a fetus, allowing the parents to have an abortion if they didn't want a girl. In many ways, this revelation reminded me of the book Freakonomics, which seeks the underlying explanations for various social phenomenon. For example, the authors sought an explanation for the dramatic decrease in serious crimes during the late 1980's and early 1990's. While the law enforcement agencies took credit for this decrease, the researchers showed how the real cause for this decline was the rise in abortions during the 1960s and 70s, particularly among women who were poor, single, young, and drug users. The researchers provided data that demonstrated a correlation between a child's chances of becoming a serious criminal and the status of his mother. In the late 1960's through the 1970's, women who were poor, single, young, and drug users had more abortions than other women. The researchers concluded that these abortions essentially eliminated a future generation of children who would have a predilection to become criminals. These children, had their mothers given birth to them, would have formed the generation of criminals that would matured in the 80's and 90's.

The fact that simple changes can have profound and often unexpected results makes me wonder about the long term consequences of China's one child policy and the unequal ratio of male and female children. One consequence that I am aware of is the "little emperor" syndrome. I read reports of children being spoiled rotten by their parents and grandparents because they only had one child, and some observers predicted that this would possibly led to greater social problems in China's future.
edited by ghom on 8/1/2014
edited by ghom on 8/1/2014

[Anonymous]

In the discussion, Professor Dube made it clear that once women were given educational and career opportunities, birthrates tended to go down. This trend has been observed in most countries. I wonder if there were comparative studies made between the children from households where the mothers were educated and had careers and those who came from households where the mothers had less educational and career opportunities. I think it would be interesting to see what differences exist between these children and the advantages and disadvantages, as well as the short and long term effects, of these differences.
edited by ghom on 8/1/2014

[Anonymous]

I found the demographics and the data in the presentation very informative. My prior knowledge about the Chinese family planning policy and fertility rate is greatly enriched by the comparison with other Asian countries such as Korea, Japan and India. The pictures in this presentation caught my attention - they capture some typical scenes in Chinese society. For example, the wedding picture totally reminds me of that of my parents. At that time, the bride only wore red or pink since they are "lucky" colors. Another picture shows a family/ friends playing cards, which is a very common family entertainment. Mostly these family games involve money. Chinese social practices do not exclude children from gambling scenes or activities. I can't help but remember how some of my Chinese students play poker games any chance they get because that's what they learn to do since they are little kids.

[Anonymous]

I really enjoyed Prof. Dube's presentation and I learned so much. I also viewed the rest of the presentation slides that he posted and saw the photo of the bound feet. I would like to learn more about this topic. It seems so cruel, but I know there must be a reason(?!!)that this was done to women. Can anyone recommend any resources for me? Thank you.
edited by sshiva on 8/1/2014

[Anonymous]

In looking at the population trends and statistics, I'm wondering what lies ahead for the United States. Driving here this morning I found myself looking at the smog and thinking about the images of Beijing during the Olympics, with people wearing masks to combat the bad air. Also, as I'm weaving my way through the sea of cars and trucks, I was thinking about the rise of the automobile in China and how much worse things could get as more and more Chinese become auto owners. It's a bleak scene for the future unless Auto emissions can somehow be drastically reduced.

[Anonymous]

Didn't see a heading for the trip to the Huntington on Fri. so I'm just gonna add my comments here.
I loved the beautiful grounds and gardens, and really enjoyed the heck out of our tour guide. Very colorful fellow, but also totally knowledgeable about not only Japanese tradition and culture, but also all things plants and trees. Our group was fortunate enough to be able to sneak in to see the Japanese Tea House, which was not open to the rest of the public. I took lots of pictures would love to return to see the rest of the grounds.

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