Session 2b: Philosophical Golden Age/Early Empire The Qin and Han Dynasties 7-29-08

[Anonymous]

A long night-- I learned a bunch from the lecture and debate. I probably drove my son nuts as he drove me to the hospital since I went on and on about their views. I would love to attempt this with my students on a much more guided level. I hated the work the prior night but could have debated for a loooooooooooooong time.

I was very surprised to learn that swords were collected and then melted down to make bronze statues (I assume bronze??). Just a great tid-bit of knowledge.

So Clay, in 2003 Chinese astronauts went into space and could not see the Great Wall of China? Did we walk on the moon? ? What did our guys see? 😐

[Anonymous]

i completely enjoyed the debate. it was so far from what i had nervously anticipated. i loved it. in general i love those types of conversations: a great interchange of free thought and opinion. thank you to everyone for you parts and for allowing me to have so much fun with my part (ahh...the great actress i aspire to be).

on the educational note, i so enjoyed the day i am thinking about using this forum and debate for my curriculum project. i'm not sure how i am going to do it yet, but i am working on it. i think it would be great with my eleventh grade classes. i'm sure i could incorporate it in to the early american history/literature section. and i'm sure i could put together a great essay for them to write after the experience. this is the plan. my wheels are turning. i'll be sure to run my ideas pass you all as i try to work out the kinks.

again, thanks for yesterdays wonderful experience.

[Anonymous]

Hey!
I really enjoyed the debate and as many of you have alluded too. It was def. an affective tool for understanding and analyzing. Some of these ideas have sunk in more than the straight lecture.

Clay's lesson has made me think about how to incorporate it in my geography class with my unit on China. It can def. be used in my classroom though I will probably encourage each student to have an a pre-written opening and closing speech so that students who struggle with English or just get nervous speaking on the spot can use that as a crutch, if needed. I can also collect it to assess their overall individual understanding of their philosophy. I like what someone said about having students make propaganda posters, props, etc. Whenever we do things in my class where students take on characters they are required to dress up which I would incorporate into this lesson.

In my World History class I think I would incorporate these East Asian teachings into a press conference I have at the beg. of the year, in which students figure out the ideal form of government. I usually have Plato, Queen Elizabeth I, Hobbes, Rousseau, Locke, and a few other Western thinkers. I could possibly think about adding Confucius, Lao Zi, Shang Yang, to make it more WORLD oriented. I can use the background information that Clay gave us, and have students use that to build their argument like we did yesterday.

Anyone have any suggestions to add to my lessons???

[Anonymous]

I agree with ritow....although we learned about 4 conflicting schools of philosophy, there are pearls of wisdom that can be taken from each. I entered the simulation prepared to defend my legalist point of view, which I think is my nature. I was surprised to learn that by the end of the day there were parts from all 4 schools of thought (Mohism, Daoism, Confucianism, and Legalism) that I think would be a good addition to my own school of thought. I think there is some insight here I will have to delve into for the final paper. I generally dislike these round table types of discussion activity, but I must admit I learned alot and it was a good experience and I probably learned and retained more than if I had just read the material. It is a good activity to use with students because it really does "cement in" the material to the learner. I just wish I'd been a little more aggressive to get my ideas out first. Next time.......

[Anonymous]

Thank you for providing us the important materials in advance through e-mail attachment (especially the "Early Chinese History - The Hundred Schools Period"" by Clayton Dube). I had enough time to read all and prepare. In class, I appreciated Professor Dube's lecture/presentation and style; it was easy to understand (his voice, diction, speed, etc .)

I lived in R.O.C. (Taiwan) during my undergraduate and graduate school period (Chinese and Japanese Comparative Literature), and saw Confucianism practice in many places. People respect each other like LunYu says:
Ran Yong asked about benevolence. The Master said, " Behave when away from home as though you were in the presence of an important guest....What you do not like, do not impose on others." (12.2)

Although I had to spend so much time for homework on this topic, I thought that the whole process was so interesting.
I would like to implement the style we learned through this lesson. First, I will give my students "Early Chinese History- The Hundred Schools Period" and "Four School of Thoughts" (handouts) as reading assignments. Then I will ask them to write down the important Q &A (use the forms provided by Prof. Dube). After all students finished their assignments by due date, they will have an exciting "debate"!! I am sure my students like debate, too.
8)

[Anonymous]

Killing enemies at a distance makes them seem less real. We always want to find a new and more efficient way to kill others (crossbows, nuclear preemptive strikes, surgical strikes). Han Feizi's story is not so different from today's. I, however, would like Han-Shan's approach. We want security, we humans, but real security will only come when we care for one another. Han-Shan says,"Go tell families with silverware and cars 'What's the use of all that noise and money?' "

How many of us can relate to this:

Borrowers don't bother me
In the cold I build a little fire
When I'm hungry I boil up some greens.
I've no use for the kulak
With his big barn and pasture-
HE JUST SETS UP A PRISON FOR HIMSELF.
[emphasis mine]
Once in he can't get out.
Think it over-
You know it might happen to you.
(Birch pg.196-202)

Well, ain't it the truth! And, this is understandable. People need a certain amount of food, shelter, clothing and medicine. But, I think our unending desire for control and PSYCHOLOGICAL security has placed us at great risk. Look at what we have done to one another in order to be strong and feel secure. The lesson is evident. We are armed to the teeth. Forty thousand nuclear weapons poised to respond to any threat. We have never NOT used a weapon we have created.

So, perhaps we should head to Cold Mountain and boil up some greens. Why wait for a rabbit?

[Anonymous]

I really enjoyed the debate. I am waiting for a day that my Chinese students' Chinese will be good enough to do this kind of debate in Chinese. Maybe when they are in Chinese level 4 or 5?

[Anonymous]

What about the Hydrogen Bomb? ...We created it and tested it but we have not "used" it in terms of what a weapons intended use is.

Although I agree with your statement, "I think our unending desire for control and PSYCHOLOGICAL security has placed us at great risk, " it is important that we don't forget the historical context of the development of the nuclear bomb. Two European scientists (who left Europe during the rise of fascism) sought Einstein and his assistance in contacting President Roosevelt to begin developing such a weapon because these men feared that Hitler was beginning to develop such a weapon. They were fearful of such power falling into the hands of such a man. Einstein too had recently left his homeland because he feared the power of the Nazi party and he too agreed that Germany must not be the first to have nuclear weaponry. Therefore, he decided to write a letter conveying this knowledge to FDR. After all, who would one rather prefer have the nuclear bomb, the United States or Nazi Germany?

Fast forward a few years to the end of the war and it became apparent that Germany never came close to developing the nuclear bomb, but they did have uranium en route to Japan who was much further along with their brightest college graduates working on the task. There is a great History Channel documentary on the Japanese Atomic Program if you are interested. I have even heard it be argued that it was the known devastating effects of the weapon that ultimately resulted in us not going to war against the Soviets during the Cold War and why it has not been used since...

[Anonymous]

I enjoyed the debate. If I did this debate in my class, I would structure it so that everyone would have the opportunity to talk - I am not sure what that would look like...any suggestions?

After reading, notes and little lunchtime discussion on the four philosohpies the debate really solidified the information. And to have to take part of the debate in the third person made the history come alive - I can see this really working in the classroom (maybe even for a debate about different political parties in the US).

I think the way the debate was led, with leading question that matched the worksheet in the binder made the exercise even more effective because all of the participants - if they filled out the worksheet - had something to pull from and they did not have to debate completely from memory, which can be intimidating.

[Anonymous]

Session 2B: Philosophical Golden Age/Early Empire the Qin and Han Dynasties

Since I'm not a person who is history savvy; I can honestly say that until last Monday I was totally in the dark regarding the different philosophies that were influential during the Philosophical Golden Age. Each as I discovered is unique and quite controversial as I experienced first hand during our debate. In doing our debate I started to think that since everyone in this earth is a philosopher in his/her own little way, I thought, "Hey, why not have my students learn about different philosophies and have them create their own philosophy about what would be a perfect world?" I bet it would be interesting to find out what the students write. I can still remember that dreaded questions that employers ask during the interview process. What is your philosophy on education?

Maria

[Anonymous]

The debate was a lot of fun as well as a powerful learning strategy. Of course, a large part of its success came from the fact that we all prepared for it and were willing to participate. Classrooms aren't always full of eager students. Structure, as ashapiro suggested, would encourage/allow those reluctant or mentally absent students to take a meaningful role in it. One suggestion would be to have groups discuss a response with each other after the question is posed . I would also have them jut down a supporting quote on a strip of construction paper to help the other groups better understand their stance. Once the debate is over there would still be key ideas up around the room which students could go back to as the unit moved forward.

[Anonymous]

Looking back, I believe that the debate was the most stimulating section of the nine-day program. Cheers to my fellow Mohists in offering up hugs to society's offenders and piggybacking off one another's comments like it was in style. It was tough to argue that music and ritual were inherently wasteful practices, but points about practicality in terms of national defense and irrigation, the potential hazards of the Confucian tendency towards particularism (go universal love!) and the idea that a group's leader should simply be the most capable person rang true.
Unfortunately, I will have to limit my debate activities this year to my AP Government class. It is said that it takes three years in Japanese class to learn what is covered in a single year of Spanish or French curriculum. While I believe this is a slight exaggeration (and I push my students pretty hard), they are just learning to express simple opinions in the 3rd year. Still, for as entertaining an experience as this lesson was, I wonder if I can tweak it to increase accessibility while not over-simplifying so that the students' interests are maintained.

[Anonymous]

At another school posting, a fellow social studies teacher and I put together a short PowerPoint on the philosophies of Confucianism, Buddhism, and Daoism. We gave a quick summary of all three even managing to get Winnie the Pooh into the act as the quintessential Daoist. Students had to identify quotes as to philosophy. Being made of rather common clay, I can never resist shooting a few old "Confucious says" clinkers past them, especially after working through a few aphorisms from the Analects.. The nature of puns is quite foreign to the students here so it's intersting when the lights start going on. I usually don't tell them that a great number can be found on-line since so many are sexual in nature, but occasionally they do come back to me and I have to ever watchful. For better or worse, here are a couple.

Confucious says: To make egg roll, push it.
Man who jumps through screen door likely to strain himself.
Man who run in front of car get tired.
Man who run behind car get exhausted.
Marriage is three-ring circus; engagement ring, marriage ring, suffering.
There are three kinds of people; those who can count, and those who can't.

[Anonymous]

The debate was really a good exercise in learning all the philosophies. Now I know what one of my lawyer friends ment when he said, which side to you want me to defend , I can defend either side of the case. I really wasn't that attached to my assigned philosopy of Mohism but was able to defend it to some degree because of some rudimentary understanding of its practices. There are really some good aspects to all the four philosophies but at this point I think I favor Confucism as a philosophy condusive to the classroom. I can see that its ideal of right conduct and self examination and control are related to our present shool hierarchy of behavior levels. Self motivation and self control are at the highest level. Anarchy and a classroom with out a code of conduct based on doing the right thing at the right time is at the lowest level

[Author]

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