Session 3a - 11/21/09 - Dube - China: 1949 to 1976

[Rob_Hugo@PortNW]

Hi everyone,

Please reply to this message and share your thoughts about our November 21 morning session on China from 1949 to 1976 by Clayton Dube.

-Miranda

[Anonymous]

I really enjoyed the 1st session today. I had no idea about the Chinese currency and found that fascinating. I had never fully understood the whole relationship between the Nationalists and the Communists and their split, reunification to fight the Japanese, and then their split again. I really appreciated Dr. Dube's clear explanation. I took copious notes so I can explain it to my students too. Thanks!

[Anonymous]

I have taught Animal Farm many time and studied the Russian Revolution in order to clearly help my students see the allegorical nature. Now, when we read it this year, I have the additional advantage of discussing the interest China had in copying much of the Russian ideals and where that led them. Dovetailing with the history classes, this will truly help my sophomores link history and English.

[Anonymous]

The morning session was enjoyable. Thank you Clay and Miranda for providing the snacks and dessert. There were so many issues discussed that I found interesting -- I did not realize to what extent Soviet Union had an influence over China. I wonder how the leaders of both countries were able to communicate or relay messages to one another. Did the leaders or translators of each respective countries study the languages and/or have had extensive experience with the other country? How did the Russians view their Chinese counterparts?

[Anonymous]

China, between 1911-1949 is "disembodied." Warlords fight with one another over power and
moderization. Modernization warlords want to follow Japan's example by building schools for girls and boys. They saw this as part of China's mobilzation and moderization -with Japan as its inspiration.

However, Japan's alliance with the Bolsheviks brought a civil war, Lennin, and a communist government to Beijing.

THe intellectuals in attendance argue over a communist vs. a democratic form of government.
Still other participants blame CHina's ills on foreigners who dissect China for their own gain.

Around 1920, warlords are brought under one government as two parties, nationalists and communists work together - temporarily, but warlords behave in a passive-aggressive manner.
When these two parties break up., Nationalists drive out imperialists, while
women become part of both Nationalists and Communist parties.

These abovementioned points explain the evolution of communism in China and how
Russia nurtured its birth. Eventually, China is unified in 1949.

and

[Anonymous]

Clay’s discussion concerning the Japanese invasion of China was of particular interest to me. The examples he gave provided insights on the animosity that still exist between both governments today. Japan, as well as other nations have had dark periods in their histories, it is interesting on the processes that nations undergo to heal themselves. South Africa had truth and conciliation committees, Germany reparations. The discussions led me to recall on the many ways that nations/societies deal or grapple with horrific moments in their histories. Sometimes before national acceptance of wrongs committed, nations deal with their past by omission of painful events, rewriting history or creating new folk tales. In the US, for example, the painful period after the Vietnam War, many action films depicted American heroes who were invincible; Rambo comes to mind.

There are two Chinese films that come to mind that follow in the similar fashion. A word of warning here! My affinity for martial arts films will be exposed at last. One is Donnie Yen’s “Yip man”: The story of Bruce Lee’s teacher Yip Man and how he survived the Japanese invasion in 1937of Foshan. And the other is Jet Li’s Fearless: the story of Huo Yuanjia, a famous Chinese martial artist who challenged foreign fighters in highly publicized events. Both films contain heroic figures that confronted the Japanese and won. Both films convey a restoration of national pride for the Chinese during the Japanese occupation.

It will be interesting to see if Japan will ever have some type of truth and conciliation discussions with China and Korea, although I understand that there are also financial obligations and political repercussions that perhaps are preventing the Japanese government from taking more productive steps towards reviewing its part in World War II history.

[Anonymous]

FINALLY I get a sense of Chinese history in the 20th century.
Thanks, Prof Dube, for presenting what is for me an often rambling confusion of people, warlords, battles, ideologies, events in a succinct (if that is possible) way.
I am struck by the similarities between Mao's 'creation' of his communist state and that of Stalin. I wonder, if in fact Mao had known the real consequences of the Five-Year Plans, and the disastrous famines that plagued the USSR in the '30's, whether he would have modified his plans earlier. Could the famine and deaths in China have been avoided? One can only surmise.

[clay dube]

Joe raises big questions regarding China and Japan. The Japanese were slow to acknowledge their role in launching war in East Asia. Many feel that even the acknowledgments are inadequate because they include Japanese among the victims of the war. This is true of course, but seems to some in East Asia (and in America, for that matter) to be dodging responsibility. It's important, though, to remember that none of the decision makers from WWII are alive today and that only the oldest among us were even adults at that time. Still, isn't it useful for later generations to honestly "face history"?

[Anonymous]

There were a lot of interesting things that I learned and definitely have found will help me with my students. When I enrolled in this class, I thought it would be a great tool for my AP World History class, never did I think that it would assist me in my regular World History class or allow me to make suggestions for interdisciplinary lessons!

I think the thing I'm most excited about was reading the comments and finding out that Animal Farm discusses communism! I never had to read it in school and hadn't heard anything about it.

Because of my school's bell schedule I had always glossed over the brief cease fire between the Nationalist Party and the Communist Party to fight off the Japanese because I myself didn't quite understand it/have the time to look in depth about it. Clay explained this so excellently. I really need to remember to ask about the possibility of getting the powerpoints put online so I can "borrow" the pictures. I find that the ways in which Clay helps us visualize the history help me greatly (whether its a picture of a Chinese coin to decapitated heads).

I also found the side information about Chiang Kai Shek being on the cover of TIME magazine to be fascinating. I like the mixture of "academic" information with "fun" information. It really brings the information alive to myself and I know will be just as interesting to my students when I get to our Unit on Communism in the world!

[Anonymous]

Hey all,

Clay, thanks so much for bringing into sharp focus the complexity and inexorability of Communism's failure. I don't know if that was your intention, but it is the conclusion to which I came. What started out as such a nice idea ended so horribly because, ultimately, it is human nature to want more than one has.

Even Chairman Mao found it easier to safeguard his own policies that gave him such comforts yet starved his people rather than admit defeat.

1) Did he do it because he was comfortable in his advancing years and not want to jeopardize that comfort?

or

2) Was it megalomania that did not allow him to admit defeat. Imagine so much pride that you would imprison your own friend of 40+ years because he told you (correctly!) your economic policies were flawed.

I love learning a narrative. It really helps to bring stories to life. And lord knows, Mao supplied us with plenty of story. What an endlessly interesting fellow.

See you all this weekend.
Thomas

[Anonymous]

Hi Miranda and Clay and everyone,
It was interesting to understand Mao Zedong's -1949 message-movement, "Our nation will not be center of humiliation, we have stood up" After Japan controlled and dominated uneducated, peasants, laborers; millions of people were forced to move to Taiwan because it was the best place where they found art, music, food. In addition to the land and marriage reform which granted freedom to control their own land and lives. Great session, Thanks Clay for all this information.

[Anonymous]

Again, thank you for the hospitality and the considerate snacks. The Nationalists and the
Communists were the two competing political factors in China at this time. Their relationship was one of broken unification. One minute it was in, and another minute it was out. It's like the Democrats and the Republicans, only worse. We of the Western World do not give China its credit due for the way it has affected our past as well as our present and future history. From 1911 to 1949 the war lords fight each other for power, and in the pursuit of modernization attempts. As Communism settled upon China, we see an infiltration of Russian Influence. Communism is born to China. I have to comment on the fact that as each new political element is born in China, it is in keeping with the needs and the political situations of this great country.

[Anonymous]

When I took a class on East Asian History and Politics an undergraduate I was taught that Sun Yet-Sen was the father of modern China but never really understood the underlying political and historical context of that time. After this session I had a more complete view of the context of what was happening in China at this point in its history. One thing that Clay Dube said that I wrote in my notes was that both Sun Yet-Sen and the Communists adopted the same model of "national power" for moving a disunited China forward. That the Nationalists did not address the social ills effecting many of its people and were committed to transforming China added to my understanding of how the Communists were able to eventually defeat the Nationalists.

[Anonymous]

I truly enjoyed today session about the Chinese currency. The association between the Nationalists and the Communists was interesting to learn about.

[Anonymous]

One of the parts of my World History class that I enjoy teaching the most, is the Chinese Communist Revolution. I thank Clay for giving me so much additional insight to this, and I hope when I cover this topic later this year, it will be able to use all that he has given me.

[Author]

Posts