Session 6a: Late Imperial China 8-4-08

[Rob_Hugo@PortNW]

Please post responses to the 8-4-08 morning session here.

[Anonymous]

Eunuchs, it seems, have never really been respected as people, but rather used as a way to have men in the court and not be a threat. (And bureaucrats always seem to take control and power away from “the little guys” at some point.) The eunuchs were smart and helped bring prosperity to China, and because of jealousy they were brought down. I bring this up because I just had a conversation about eunuchs and their treatment in India on Saturday. In India, eunuchs are still around, but they are a joke, they are seen as freaks, hired to dance at parties and given money to get them to go away. I learned that even in the time that they were a large part of court, they were not respected as people, and often were mutilated, forced to become eunuchs. I know that this information is from India, but it is thought provoking, and since the topic came up today, I thought it worth mentioning.

Considering this, I would like to discuss the following: Are there still eunuchs in China today? How are they treated? And most importantly, why would anyone do this to another man? Were the eunuchs taken/chosen from a group of people that were a threat to the Emperor or that he felt needed to be punished? This type of mutilation seems to fall under a human rights issue.

[Anonymous]

I think maybe you are not understanding what they do to eunuchs. They castrate them, they are still able to perform they just don't have sperm. Mary N. and I were discussing it and they kept their scrotum with them because when they died they needed to have all their body parts with them. I think this is more humane than what they do to women in some cultures.

[Anonymous]

All mindfilling today, but the info on Marco Polo really caught me today. I never thought to question his being in Mongolia or serving as an associate to the great Kublai Khan. Did he go to Mongolia and if he didn't who really cares, what difference does it make? Douglas Fairbanks raised these questions, as well as, German historians. Samuel Goldwyn later directed The Adventures of Marco Polo, which ended up losing money and never made it to the box office. It is said that will in a Genoa prison, Polo gave account to another prisoner, Rusticiano of Pisa, which later was published in 1300.

Frances Wood addressed these issues: 1) Polo doesn't mention the Great Wall 2) he doesn't mention tea 3) there are no records/documents of him being an associate of Kublai Khan, and 4) footbinding is not mentioned. To these questions many others have tried to explain why Polo never mentioned those things: 1) The Great Wall was out of the way, or maybe he didn't want to make the Great Kublai Khan an embarrassment to his people, because that was a factor in stoping invasions on China, or perhaps he had not interest in what it represented to China. 2) Mongolian drink tsai and not Chinese tea. It is made different, yak butter and salt were added 3) records/documents were lost mentioning Polo as an associate/official of any kind or that an aka was given to Polo by the Mongols and no one has discovered that aka as of yet. 4) footbinding was only around for a century, give or take, and not everyone did it. Those women who farmed didn't bind because they needed to be in the fields for long periods of time. Also, Polo would not have been around women, he was doing business. [Edit by="rosanna_elgohary on Aug 4, 5:50:14 PM"][/Edit]
[Edit by="rosanna_elgohary on Aug 4, 5:55:15 PM"][/Edit]
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[Anonymous]

I cannot believe that I'm posting about this, but the above posts got my human-flesh-search-engine buzzing. Here's what I found from this site:

http://http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/content/full/84/12/4324#SEC2

In China, castration of a male who entered the caste of eunuchs during imperial times involved the removal of the whole genitalia, that is, the removal of the testes, penis, and scrotum. The removed organs were returned to the eunuch to be interred with him when he died so that, upon rebirth, he could become a whole man again. The penis, testicles, and scrotum were euphemistically termed bǎo (寶) in Mandarin Chinese, which literally means 'precious treasure'. These were preserved in alcohol and kept in a pottery jar by the eunuch.

Okay, it's from Wikipedia, but I linked the original source!

So everything is chopped off, but it is preserved so you can have it with you when you enter the after-life.

ps) I'm sorry, Clay, that I had to build on this post, but I am a stickler for finding out the truth!

[Anonymous]

It was very interesting that Marco Polo was a prisoner. I didn't know that. I think that he probably did take liberties with his stories. The fact remains he influenced others to explore the area and that changed the world. I believe my students will enjoy the slide that shows the difference in the size of Zheng He's ship and Columbus' largest ship. I also found it interesting that the Manchu's forced the Chinese to shave their heads. We have pictures of the Chinese at Calico Ghost Town with the same hair style. My kids will relate to that also, now I can tell them why the hair style and why they didn't change it.

[Anonymous]

Here are some images I was going to edit and post before, but it wouldn't let me, so I'm reposting.
I feel this is culture and was accepted as such, we must respect culture even though our ideas about beauty are not the same. After all not all we do in American society is seen as beautiful by the rest of the world.
Be aware that this picture may not be what you might expect:

I tried to post more than one picture but it only let me do one at a time. If your interested just try the following link:

http://hvattum.net/index.php/2007/05/19/chinese-foot-binding/ not what you might expect:[Edit by="rosanna_elgohary on Aug 4, 6:23:39 PM"] While surfing it seeming that Japanese binding is different from Chinese binding. Did anyone find a difference?
[/Edit]
[Edit by="rosanna_elgohary on Aug 4, 8:18:12 PM"] In China, castration of a male who entered the caste of eunuchs during imperial times involved the removal of the whole genitalia, that is, the removal of the testes, penis, and scrotum. This was done to preserve the royal bloodline. Castration involved great danger of death due to bleeding or infection. The removed organs were returned to the eunuch to be interred with him when he died so that, upon rebirth, he could become a whole man again. The penis, testicles, and scrotum were euphemistically termed bǎo (寶) in Mandarin Chinese, which literally means 'precious treasure'. These were preserved in alcohol and kept in a pottery jar by the eunuch. Eunuchs were envied by the beuarcrats because they had more influence with the emporer. This was known to take place in the later Han, late Tang, and late Ming Dynasties. Ouch! That hurts!!![/Edit]

[Anonymous]

Okay, eunuchs? Definitely a Human Rights issue. I've read there a eunuchs in India also, although I, too, cannot imagine what would motivate anyone involved, the 'surgeon' the parents, anyone to do something like that. I don't have a clue. I read recently that female 'circumcision' is still an accepted practice in certain parts of the world. Sometimes it's because the parents think it will keep the girl pure, sometimes it's because the girl has been marked to take care of her parents in their old age, so she doesn't need to be attracted to men. It's so misguided, because that isn't what is responsible for the attraction, anyway. In any case, human rights organizations are trying to educate the different people and put a stop to it.
As for footbinding - I have always wondered what the fascination is for tiny anything on a grown woman. It's almost like the men who came up with the idea had a crush on some little girl when they were young, and it never left their mind. I don't get it. Another of life's mysteries. In the reading, it talked about a woman in China who spoke out against the practice, and bound up a man's feet so he could see how it felt. He was crying after one foot and agreed it should be abolished. Reminds me of what they used to say in the 70's about having men bear children, that we'd be extinct as a race if that happened.

After listening to the segments on Khubalai Khan and Marco Polo, I'm dying to get my hands on a definitive biography of each. If anyone knows of one, I'd really knowing appreciate the title/author.[Edit by="smontano on Aug 4, 7:54:13 PM"][/Edit]

[Anonymous]

I find it very interesting that China in the 17th century had the largest economy because they had the world's largest population. Yet, today China still has the largest population but not the largest economy...

This would be a great topic in economics. I want to create a lesson in which my students can study this in more detail. Suggestions?

[Anonymous]

I too was surprised by the mention of eunuchs in late Imperial China. Here is an article I found about eunuchs in Pakistan who wanted to register as a third sex. It mentions that the eunuchs are treated as men, but prefer to be seen as females. This is in the context of voting and governmental representation. This mirrors individuals who are transgender who find difficulties crossing between genders. This would be a fascinating topic for AP-level high schoolers to discuss. There are programs on TV (mostly on TLC or Discovery Health) about people who struggle to fit in society because of the gender they were born in, and in the case of these eunuchs, it is a choice. (Or, I believe it is a choice -- does someone know for sure?)[Edit by="clawson on Aug 4, 8:52:45 PM"][/Edit]

[Anonymous]

Okay, I have to admit I don't know that much about Marco Polo, but sure do enjoy playing it in a pool with friends. With that said, how interesting would it be for students to be presented with the questions surrounding his accomplishments and ask them to decide for themselves? This could be a persuasive essay, debate, powerpoint, etc. Here is a student-friendly article about the conspiracy theory of Marco Polo.

[Anonymous]

It is interesting to compare Yuan Dynasty and Qing Dynasty. For Yuan Dynasty, I got the image of a little greedy bear, who keeps on plucking new corns under his arms(obtaining new territories), and after gathering a whole bunch of corns, he does not know how to manage them. For Qing Dynasty, the Manchurian is much more sophisticated. They skillfully integrated into the Chinese society and systems, and was able to rule over China for close to three hundred years.

Through the lecture, I also found out that Yuan abolished the Civic Exam System. When Ming came, one of the most important missions for them was re-establish the Civic Exam System. Also, how Zhu Yuan Zhang adopted Confucianism and in practice, he utilized Han Fei Zi's Legalist's method of censorship to keep the bureaucrats in line of their duties was interesting.

In looking back the Chinese history, I was wondering, if China adopted western's democracy system early on, how will China turn out today? All the great, smart, capable emperors could still be elected without blood shed, without changing the "dynasty" and still keep all the advancement they previously achieved. Instead, dynasty after dynasty, the vicious cycles of corruption, destruction, rebuilding, and back to corruption again, kept on turning its wheel. A great leader with vision (and open-minded) is important. In the meantime, a sound political system that governs the leaders is as important. Learning from the past, I truly hope China will perfect its political system along with its economic advancement.

[Anonymous]

Foot binding, castration! I can't wrap my mind around either one. The images of the foot binding really sent me reeling. I'm trying hard to grasp on what I could extract from that information and make it useful for my students.
As my stomach churns, I could only think about what present day "beauty" standards have done to young women. We could perhaps do a comparative project of "defined beauty" in different cultures and different times. Through such discoveries a class could also derive changing/lasting social values. Now I know that this wouldn't be specific to East Asia, but including countries such as China, Japan, and Korea would add exposure to the area and their customs.

[Anonymous]

I've always found my ideas about Marco Polo a bit murky, I thought it had been because I didn't pay much attention in class, but perhaps it was because I never really got the facts.

When one is teaching students how to discover truth through history and literature it is important to give them opportunities to figure out how. The Marco Polo conspiracy theory would be a great way to demonstrate that just because something is written it is not an absolute truth. An expository or persuasive essay that uses the article clawson provided (thank you), the history books, and the internet would be an amazing way to engage students in the language arts standards while at the same time encouraging them to think critically about information presented to them in the form of books, speeches, advertisements or such.

[Anonymous]

I think it is imperative that we teach our students the closest thing to the truth that we can find. I realize that it is not overtly comprehensible to my younger grades, but I think 7th graders should be informed that the information about Marco Polo talking about The Grand Canal may not be true at all. I will provide my students the information that was presented to us in class about the questions of the validity of his story and let them do some research about him. The idea is that they become more critical readers of history and have the idea planted that not everything in the written word is true. That being said, I also want to give them the best chance of doing well on the state test so I would tell them what will be the expected answer on that.
I think it is very important for students to be critical of their government and question authority. It seems to me like our culture is getting worse in many ways and we as teachers need to do what we can to help turn that around. To find out whether or not Polo went to China does matter, but either way, the stories opened up the East to Europeans so they were beneficial.

[Author]

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