Session 6a: Late Imperial China 8-4-08

[Anonymous]

I’ve been fascinated by the Chinese tolerance of, even willingness to embrace, various religious beliefs. Although they would fight for power, the leaders did not hypocritically cloak that desire by claiming that “God was on their side.” The only time we’ve heard of a leader citing the mandate of heaven was when the last emperor of the Ming dynasty commits suicide as the Manchurians storm the royal compound. At least they are not deceiving themselves or others as they seek territorial dominance. Weren’t the crusades being fought about this time also? And the Inquisition? And the witch trials? I think I’d rather be in China….unless they made me shave my head and grow a queue. That overt act of domination, over the individuals, not just the country, is so offensive! But the Chinese wisely convert that symbol of submission into a symbol of deliberate compliance – or rebellion. Apparently fluidity of thought is one pervasive, and effective, attribute of the Chinese collective conscience.

[Anonymous]

I understand how eunuchs are castrated. Often, however, they are mutilated and they are treated poorly. This has proven to have mental side effects as well in some areas. In india, there is a real problem with eunuchs and their mental state.

back to China:

Wu Chieh Ping and Gu Fang-Liu
Institute of Urology, Beijing Medical University Beijing, China
"History of Chinese Medicine"
Tientsin, China: The Tientsin Pres Ltd., pp. 109-113 (1932).
Reproduced in EORTC Genitourinary Group Monogrpah 10.
Urological Oncology, Reconstructive Surgery, Organ Conservation, and Restoration of Function. pp. 249-255 (1991). Wiley-Liss, Inc.
Summary:
In 1960, there were 26 eunuchs from the palace of the Qing Dynasty still living in Beijing. The authors took that unique opportunity of carrying out a general physical examination, including palpation of the prostate, for every one of them. Their average age then was 72 years (59-83 years). They became eunuchs at the age of 10-26 years. The prostate was impalpable in 26 (81%) and 1-2 cm in width rectally in five, with a flat surface. At the time of the examination, they had been eunuchs on the average for 54 years (41-65 years). This is probably the largest series of human beings followed for such a long period of time to confirm that testicular hormone is essential for the development and preservation of the prostate. The type of operation, the traditional way of carrying out the operation and the usual complications are presented.

[Anonymous]

Very interesting research kwilliamskorbel. Very enlightening. I was actually interested in learning more about the eunuchs as well. I wasn't thinking about taking that route, but what you present is very informative nonetheless.

What I was wondering about is how, if at all, the castration mentally affected the eunuchs. This is even more interesting to me in light of being informed that the castration included “everything”. Was their a feeling of being less than that came with the castration? Was there a sense of loss? Is this why it was important for the eunuchs to be buried with all of the pieces so that they could be “whole” again in their next life? Or was there a separate mentality or frame of mind that came with the privilege or maybe honor of being a eunuch?

[Edit by="ppeterson on Aug 5, 5:10:23 PM"][/Edit]

[Anonymous]

Excellent point Mr. Pailes. I also think it is very important for students, as well as adults, to be critical thinkers. In today's day and age so many kids and adults just take for gospel what they here someone else saying, and if it fits into their personal belief system they accept it and move on. The Marco Polo story is an example of how being critical is important, otherwise we will wind up with a past that is very skewed from the truth, or we will make decisions that are based on fallacy.

I also found the Zheng He very interesting, but not in the same way as some. I have heard of him before, but it certainly made me want to delve more into China's exploration during that time period. It would be interesting to speculate as to what would China be like today had they continued in such endeavors. Maybe the Americas would all be speaking Chinese. This could be a fun writing activity for the students. [Edit by="mburditt on Aug 5, 4:40:28 PM"][/Edit]

[Anonymous]

This information on non-Chinese rule in the late Imperial period ties in with my past readings of Genghis Khan, how powerful the Mongolians were and how Genghis conquered almost all of Persia. His accounts describe the brutality of his killings.. He was a great warrior and a skilled horseman. Evidentally, he learned the combating skills from his father.
It is interesting that Marco Polo's memoirs are still questionable, one still has to make hypothetical deductions of his discoveries. However, he did pave the way for Christopher Columbus and other Portuguese travelers.
Adventures of Marco Polo would be an excellent resource of literary reading for Language Arts classroom

[Anonymous]

Please note my posting for this spot was accidentally put into Calssical and Warror Japan. So sorry.

[Anonymous]

Matthew,

As I was researching my lesson plan, your point about historical validity suddenly became especially meaningful.

While at the Pacific Asian Museum, I purchased the book Blue & White: Chinese Porcelain Around the World to use as a visual and historical resource. The author, John Carswell, is affiliated with the Oriental Institute at the University of Chicago and the American University in Beirut.

Carswell cites Marco Polo as a reliable primary source. In fact, when the name and location of a ceramic site Marco Polo describes is ambiguous, scholars debate the site's identity but never question its existence. Polo’s account is also taken as direct evidence about the process the Chinese used to make porcelain and about the passing of wealth from one generation to another via the transference of raw materials (53-4). The ramifications of blind acceptance of first person narratives is clearly demonstrated through this passage, and that may be a more valuable lesson to teach students than the journey of Marco Polo itself.

[Anonymous]

In regards to Marco Polo, I absolutely loved the way Professor Dube taught this to us! He first presented us with a brief overview of who he was and then continued to tell us of the debate amongst scholars over the validity of his travels. I felt I was much more engaged learning first about the voids and faults in his stories of the Orient and then hearing about the justifications for those voids! Then, to make his conclusion of his discussion on Marco Polo that much better Professor Dube states in more or less words, "Does it really matter whether he went or not? ...because his stories got others to go." Oh I was just blown away by that! I have been trying to think about what event in history I could duplicate this strategy with my students... and I am still thinking. If anyone has any ideas let me know!

[Anonymous]

On page 240 of Sources of Chinese Tradition there was this sentence that just stood out:

If he has no other plan than to use loyalty and sincerity as armor, and rites and rightness as a shield, and such similar phrases, and if he says that these words could accomplish diplomatic negotiations and be sufficient to control the life of our enemie, your ministers indeed do not presume to beleive it.

Wow! Could this not be applied to so many moments in history, including the debate over our current situation in Iraq. I feel this would be a great sentence to give to the students to introduce a unit on Imperialism. One could ask their students to analyze what it is that is being said and what dilemma the country is being faced with. It could also be a great closer or an assessment to the unit as well. One could ask for their interpretation of the statement again and then ask the students what they think countries experiencing the threat of imperialism should have done, wage war or try and negotiate diplomatic relations. The debate over which measure should be taken is one that will be debated throughout the 20th century over and over again.

[Anonymous]

Late Imperial China Clayton August 4

A lot got cleared up for me in this lecture on Late Imperial China. But, before I say what a jumble my history knowledge on China, Kublai Khan, Marco Polo and all that mix, let me address what I got from the organization of the presentation.

First: China does have a problem. Like all nations it has to decide how to deal with other nations. This is hard for us to understand since we have not been “dealt with” by foreign powers in the massive way that China has. How far can it open and not be torn asunder or destabilized? With a history like China’s of foreign domination it is understandable that it is sensitive.

Secondly, it has to decide how much growth it can support, because it has always been subject to intrusion and domestic unrest. The Communist Party is promising a better life and protection if the people will stick with them. The young elites seem not to care so much for human rights and freedoms as long as they enjoy the good life. The older Teinamin Square folks are horrified.

And, lastly, how will the Chinese remember their past? Communist Russia suspended all history exams in the 1970s, I believe, because they wanted to admit that the history they had been teaching was skewed. It was false. They admitted that. Will China be as strong? How will they interpret their past and the chance events that formed it?

Dr. Ye does not include the Song dynasty of 960-1279 because it was ruled by an outsider? And what’s with these Northern warriors, anyway. Did you ever notice that wherever you are in history or on the map, it seems most often to be tougher guys from the north who beat the hell out of every other tribe. I had always assumed that the great Genghis Khan had ruled over China, but not so. It was Kublai Khan in 1214-1294. I had assumed he was despised. Not so. Well, not by scholars who Clayton says give him high marks for territorial expansion. What I found most fascinating is that the area that is now or was Tibet is brought under, not Chinese, but Mongol control. Ah ha! Is this why China says that Tibet was actually always China’s territory. And, wow, the first six Dahli Lamas were were Mongolian!!!! Very, very interesting. I’d heard that but did not realize that at that time, Tibet was under Mongol rule. Now I understand China’s reasoning, but I don’t buy it. China wants the resources in Tibet and is rapidly wrecking the pristine environment. I also see why Clayton gives the Mongols credit.

Question: If the Mongols were Buddhist, why were they such blood-thirsty killers? Well, at least when questioned, they were. But, then it would be nothing new for any religion to profess peace while wielding a sword. So, I guess the Mongols were so secure in their power that they could afford to be tolerant of Buddhism.

Really, I don’t know if it’s possible for us in the U.S. to have a sense of the sweep of history, the scope of foreign domination that China has experienced. Mongolian rule, Manchurian, and off and on, China get to rule itself. I can see how the Communist Party would make use of this, even with those Chinese who don’t have the history under their belts, I do think a sense of the terror of history is handed down from generation to generation.

Interesting:

1.Mongols do away with Civil Exams
2.Mongols tolerate differing religions
3.Mongols seem like a Roman, secular state to me
4.Zhu Yuan Zhang (1328-98), a legalist, emphasis on keeping officials honest and efficient. A poor guy who claws his way to the top.
5.We could use a censor in the U.S. to keep an eye on dishonest folks in government. We’d have to hire a lot of them.
6.A Muslim Zhen He (1471-1433) is emperor. How can that be? A eunuch as well! Had he continued his sea bound explorations, who knows where China would be today.
7.Matteo Ricci (1552-1610) Who knows what accomplishments could have come about had this Jesuit been able to convey accurate knowledge that the earth moves
8.Ever and always, except in unusual cases, religion stands in opposition to the truth about how the universe is. We will kill you if you find information that disagrees with our ideology. A great book I recently read is GOD IS NOT GREAT: HOW RELIGION POISONS EVERYTHING by Christopher Hitchens.
9.So, it’s the building of the Dagbo (sp?) bridge that makes China think that it owns Tibet. Nonsense.

[Anonymous]

Alex,

I have to agree with you regarding the way that Professor Dube taught this to us. I think that the debate of whether Marco Polo really went to China will continue to be simply a debate.

The question that Professor Dube stated, "Does it really matter whether he went or not?"
is very important because we as teachers can always ask this question in regard to many issues. In my case for example as a reading teachers I can always emphasize to students that reading can really transport you to many different places. Although I've never been to China I can certainly tell many stories just like Marco Polo.

I've come across some people who deny vehemently that the Holocaust really happened; I of course find that hard to believe, but it would be interesting to know why they think the way they do. I know Marco Polo was not that controversial and his story didn't involve the death of millions of people, but we will always come across people who will deny the validity of history.

Thank God for antrophologist!

[Anonymous]

Prof. Dube classified Song, Yuan, Ming, and Qing Dynasty as late Imperial China, and he talked about: (1) open/closed; the extent and nature of relationships with 'Non-Chinese" (2) economic change: growth vs. development and its consequences (3) presented the past (How do we represent the past?): remembering contingency/serendipity.
It was fascinating to know about Khubulai Khan (1214-1294) conquering China, and his great works. Also I am curious about the story of Marco Polo, and the truth about his travels to China. As of today, there are arguments either he went to China or not. The historians are digging up various evidence to prove their own theories. Maybe this is the one of unsolved mysteries that future scholars can solve. Any how, the important fact is that the story of Marco Polo inspired others to go to China and East Asia.

During the "Olympics Opening Ceremony", the image of Zhen He (1371-1433)'s enormous ship and waves were created by Zhang Yimou, one of China's great film directors. It is a little known fact Zhen He came from Kunming. While I was watching this documentary, I noticed that I learned about both historical figues at the seminar. I found a connection. What a delightful experience!

In 17th century, China's Qing dynasty possessed the world largest economy and population, but they did not have a development like Europ's industrial revolution. Wake up Qing Dynasty!

My students can read/research about historical figures in the late Imperial China periods. Then they will write a report on that particular figure. After I check the reports, they will then give a presentation in class following the rubrics, which include California Educational Standards.

[Anonymous]

In the book Chinggis Khan 1993 a reference is given on page 176 about what Marco Polo reported about the Mongol Calvaryman. "... he could go ten days without cooking food..." giving what the men ate in those ten days. Just fun information given our new view that Marco may not have even gone to China (such fun tidbits). Loved the bantering about eunuchs from all posters. Oh my, a little TMI for me - but loving it. I too have seen documentaries and interviews but find it a bit depressing (head in the sand).

Useful for my class are some of the documents in the EWP readings (Ch. 14). for examples of expository writing / poetry and dialog - nice figurative language in which my young students can even draw the images that are provoked in their minds. think about what their drawings would look like from these lines read aloud: 1. "Bondmaid with petaled cheeks just into my teens" 2. "lest eyes should light up" 3. "young girl with hair in double coil" "In books the head must be buried," (pgs.286-287). Also, the first months of school we do biographies so as a short example we could use the excerpt on page 280 about Tan. The uses even for us L/A folks is endless.

[Anonymous]

Ms. Geisner,
A couple of examples come to mind that could be worked in a similar manner in class.
1) the legend of El Dorado
The lure of a great golden hoard or the golden man bathed in gold dust launched a number of expeditions. Francisco de Orellana and Gonzalo Pizarro explored the Amazon Basin to the mouth of the river in their unsuccesful quest. Sir Walter Raleigh produced the same results but the Orinoco was explored. Other expeditions have looked for El Dorado up to the present day and appear as documentaries on the History or Discovery channels.
2) Shangri-La
The Doolittle Raid in 1942 on Japan was launched from Shangri-La according to President Roosevelt which reportedly gave Japanese intelligence fits until all their reports about the carrier Hornet came in. It also baffled some in the American press and those reading their reports for a time. Shangri-La was the mythical Himalayan utopis in James Hilton's novel Lost Horizon and what we know as Camp David was named Shangri-La by FDR. Later one of the new Essex-class carriers was christened the USS Shangri-La.
3)the legend of Prester John
Prester John was thought to be a Christian ruler in a lost land somewhere amoung the Moslems and Pagans of the Orient. The legend was popular during the 12th to 17th centuries and the Crusaders even hoped they could find him and enlist his aid in retaking the Holy Land. The legend sparked a greta deal of exploration with the Portuguese finally believing they had located his kingdom in Ethiopia.
4) Zeng He's map
I'll let you research the details of this one for the cartographic arguments have been fierce but the upshot was renewed interest in our favorite eunuch.

[Anonymous]

Not tired of eunuch's yet. Check out these three little well illustrated books that give the histories of famous or infamous Chinese court eunuchs. Each volume deals with a separate set of dynasties.
http://www.chinabooks.com/cart/product.php?productid=17621&cat=0&page=1

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