Session 9A: 19th Century China

[Rob_Hugo@PortNW]

Please post your comments on our last morning's lecture here.

[Anonymous]

If we are supposed to learn from the past (a questionable assumption since cultures seem to repeat the errors of previous centuries), then perhaps as a teacher I should learn from the Qing dynasty how long term advancement is achieved via development, not expansion. Of course, the Qing were successful for centuries, and I could continue to expose my students to the same, European literature for yet another year of their short educational lives. But perhaps instead I should develop their awareness of Asian culture and literature. How many times do they need to read Frost, Whitman, Poe, Shakespeare…. Oh dear, this could be painful. Poe’s dementia is SO much fun to share, and Shakespeare ain’t called the Bard for nuthin’.

The Qing dynasty fell because the emperor failed to foretell the future; the industrial revolution was rising on his western border, but he was still looking east. Well, these past two weeks have given me a glimpse into the future, and I don’t have to visit an oracle or crack any bones to realize that I MUST direct my students’ gaze towards Asia.

The first sentence I wrote this morning was, “The key to Qing longevity was accommodation.” My curriculum must accommodate Asian awareness. But I don’t want to lose the distinctiveness of the European literary masters, either – one drawback of the Qing policy. Perhaps the answer is a combination of expansion and development is the answer. By relying on familiar ideas and texts (expansion) to introduce Asian philosophy and literature (development), I can enjoy A Midsummer Night’s Dream, The Raven, AND The Tale of Genji.

[Anonymous]

Sharon, you already did what you needed to do! By bringing in a Hardy poem and connecting it to the plight of women who are abused, you are bringing a Western and an Eastern idea together. It might take a little more creativity, for instance, you're making me think of the Poe story "The Tell-Tale Heart" and I'm thinking if I were you, I could compare it to "I Beg of You, Chung Tzu" from the Book of Songs. Both works use suspense to grip the reader, although for very different reasons. The Chinese poem is about a boy who loves a girl who is, in effect, sneaking in her house to see her, while her parents disapprove. Each stanza is about him getting closer to her, and she is getting more worried that her parents/her brother/her neighbors will find out. Again, a bit of a stretch, but that's one way of approaching comparative literature from a "how" standpoint, not a "what" standpoint.

I also liked how Yimake kept calling Genji "Don Juan," a Western "hero." Again, you probably don't teach Don Juan, but you can bring up Asian culture/literature when comparing and contrasting the Western works you already teach, or the famous heroes or stories of Western lit., and how they might borrow or be similar to those popular in Eastern lit.

Why not show a clip of Noh theater when doing Shakespeare? Oof, I don't mean to be rude, but I think if you showed a clip of Noh, then students might understand that Shakespeare is brash and funny compared to the stylized, formal theater of other cultures. They think he's stiff and boring, but a clip of Noh will make him seem like the Farrelly Brothers. Maybe...

Frost and Whitman are EASY. Most Asian poetry uses heavy nature imagery, connected to deep human emotions. Can there be a clearer link there?

Anyway, have fun. Please keep posting about what you decide to do, what comparisons you make, because this kind of stuff is my bread and butter!

[Anonymous]

As we neared the end of the seminar, I found myself leaving with more questions than answers, and I know, I know, that's a good thing.

My question from this seminar was about the people surrounding the perimeters of China. Since 94% of Chinese citizens consider themselves Han, what about those other cultures? My favorite part of the lecture was about the Uyghur people. I spent some time looking them up, looking up maps, etc. As a teenager, I went to the Soviet Union, but we stayed on the Western border towns. As an adult, I'm a big fan of Borat! Mainly because he reminds me of my Czech in-laws and their fear of gypsies and their thick accents. My father-in-law's expressions are very Borat-esque. In any case, where does West meet East? Where do guys Borat, and I know, he's fictional, and offensive, meet guys like oh, Chow Yun-Fat? Bear with me, I tend to speak in terms of pop culture, but you know what I mean? Where is the blending of Western culture and Eastern culture? That must be North-west China, and the Uyghurs and other people of that region.

What are people in Uzbekistan like? I think with a suffix like "stan" in their name, I, and others? think of it like a Pakistan or an Afghanistan, but maybe not. Especially since 9/11, a lot of Americans have an image of what a Muslim looks like in their head, and today's lecture showed us a tiny slice of Chinese Muslim life, and I really enjoyed it, and now I want to know more.

[Anonymous]

Kelly since we had at least two Muslims in our group these last two weeks I have to differ with you on the image I perceive, even after 9/11. What I envision in a stereotypical way are terrorists. The true Muslim religion is peaceful, but I guess we all know that. So I will dispense with the diatribe and post my thoughts on the use of this material in history. At first I didn't think I was going to be able to use much of today's lecture since I teach ancient world history, but happily I was wrong. I think I can compare all rulers with the Manchus. Don't most rulers want power, money, and longevity? Using the population comparison will help them get an idea of the immense size of China. I try to teach my kids how to study, use a texbook effectively, and the tricks of test taking, so the discussion on using the land more effectively will fit right into my message. I think I will try to come up with a lesson where part of my class expands without development and the other half develops while expanding. Any ideas would welcomed.

P.S. it was so nice meeting everyone. I made some special friends and I will treasure this experience. I hope everyone made it home safely and I look forward to reading your posts.

P.S.S for those I was telling about my nephew at lunch I got the country wrong. He is the head soccer coach in Saipan (just a little off) :~ .[Edit by="mlgibbon on Aug 8, 9:57:59 AM"][/Edit]

[Anonymous]

Kelly,

Thanks for your comment.

There is a Language Arts thread in the Asia in My Classroom forum, so we can share our comparative literature ideas there and troll for more.

[Anonymous]

Hey Mary Lynn, how did we disagree? Maybe I wasn't clear:

I have known a few different kinds of Muslims in my life-- black American Muslims, Indian Muslims, Caucasian American women Muslim-converts, but when I hear the word "Muslim," I still automatically think of, for lack of a better description, militant guys from the Middle East, wearing turbans & long beards, or women in black bhurkas to the floor. Even though I know better :}

I was saying that I enjoyed learning about the Northwestern Chinese Muslims because I feel like they're not represented in the way Americans perceive what Muslims look or act like, so I thought that was cool, and I want to learn more.

Are we still off?

[Anonymous]

I thought this was an interesting lecture, partly because we are moving closer and closer to the time when my grandparents and great grandparents lived. I thought the information about the British East India Company was particularly interesting, especially how they basically propagated the Opium Wars for England. My grandmother's father was a high-level customs officer in England (for the Crown) after The Opium Wars, but not too long after. What a sad state of affairs that after almost three centuries we still throw money in the wind trying to "fight" drugs. I thought the economic information regarding copper coins and silver tael's was fascinating as well. In 1729 there were 200 chests of opium brought into China. A little more than 100 years later there were 23,570 chests brought in. I wonder how many are being brought in now...

[Anonymous]

History is written by the winners. In my world history class in high school, as well as my humanities courses in college, we just glossed over the 18th and 19th centuries in Asia, and I don’t remember anything about the British abusing China in the way that they did regarding trade. This is an important side to this time in history, but it is often glossed over because it doesn’t make the winners look very heroic. I ran into a similar issue when teaching Hiroshima by John Hersey. MY students had heard about the atomic bomb and knew that many were killed, but they had no clue the devastation caused, had they gained accurate information about the internment camps in the United States. I actually had some students tell me that fewer people died in the Hiroshima explosion than at Pearl Harbor. Another let me know that the interned Japanese had fun in there…that it was like a summer camp. Isn’t that frightening?

I am so glad that we are all here learning about East Asian history from a point of view other than the US history text book editors. It is important to know all sides of a story, not matter how painful or ugly it may be. Only by delving into the more difficult and perhaps uncomfortable subjects can one really get a sense of “the truth” and motivations behind the actions.

[Anonymous]

The comparisons to the development of Japan with the expansion in China was enlightening. It makes clear sense now how Japan was able to overcome the Chinese when these comparisons are put forth within the context of their populations. Comparing the population of China during this time to that of the current United States would also put it into perspective for students. I think it would also be interesting to compare the different ethnic and religious groups as well. With China's huge population we often forget that their minority groups can still be huge compared to other countries. I don't think most kids know this. [Edit by="mburditt on Aug 8, 9:36:30 PM"][/Edit]

[Anonymous]

Although Clay had to leave in the middle of the morning session, I appreciated the "assignment" that he gave us to work on while he was gone. He asked us to come up with a list of the big questions for 19th/20th century East Asia. I wish we had had more time to touch on some of the ideas that were brought up as a result of the assignment.

I found the information about 19th century global trade very interesting. People tend to associate globalization with the 21st century when, as I found out from Clay's lecture, there was significant global trade in the 1800s, which led to significant structural and long-term changes for China. The major conflict in China during this time was balancing the expansive west with tradition-bound China. This conflict creates an imbalance in Chinese society that leads to internal disorder and rebellion.

I think it would be interesting to take this concept - expanding west vs. tradition - and see if my students could see the same pattern in different situations, time periods, places in the world. I think this concept could fit in either a comparative government or comparative economics unit.

[Anonymous]

I also enjoyed our impromptu "homework" assignment to generate questions about China. Our table came up with a lot and some of them were not answered due to time constraints. I need to stop being lazy and read about China's involvement and motivations during World War II. Is it connected to the rape of Nanking? I love hearing about historical events from a player that was not heavily involved. A sort of 'Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead'. I feel like China was not on Japan's side, but I cannot imagine them being on Russia's either. Blerg. I wish I knew more about history. People who teach WWII in their history classes should include this information.

[Anonymous]

The impromptu "homework" assignment was great for many reasons. Oh be honest, I just like breaks!

[Anonymous]

Our lesson on Opium was both intriguing and devastating to me. A great lesson could be put together on researching the similarities between underlined reasons behind the Opium war and the current drug war that exists now in America. This is something I definitely think students would enjoy researching. I personally would love to explore the facts. Is the government really fighting to keep drugs out of America? Does the government benefit from the import and selling of illegal drugs? Is the fight against it real or just a façade to appease the people? Does the government really not have control of what gets imported and exported from the country, or are they the real muscle behind the whole operation? These are great questions that could lead most high school students into desire for conversation and discovery. I think having students first learn the truth behind the Opium War would be great in dispelling some of the inaccurate information they’ve been fed (that I too had been fed), and would offer a great roadway into comparing the elements that underline America’s own drug war.

[Anonymous]

Prof. Dube first lectured on the topic: The key to Qing Dynasty longevity: accommodation", then explained about "Qing Expansion". The Qing Dynasty brought Taiwan under imperial contraol, pushed Russian to north of Amur River, fended off challenges from within and from the Northwest, and extended control over Mongolia, Xinjang, and Tibet.

It was intereting to know that how Japnan overcame China on capacity of its actions and inclination for understanding of threats while comparing the two nation's population: Japan increased production without increasing people, on the contrary, China increased production and with increased people. In mid 19th century, Japan had surplus to invest: allocated the surplus to education, technologies, etc. They had development: a capacity to create value. But China was not able to develop much even though they had an enormous population and economic growth.
When we talk about understanding trade and its impact, there is a conflict: expansive West vs. tradition-bound China. The British were buying huge amounts of tea, silk, porcelain from China, and China was buying almost nothing from the West. The British decided to change this by growing opium in India and selling it to Chinese, knowing it was very addictive. This was one way the China trade became "profitable" for the British and the West. It was a total disaster for the Chinese.

I think that we can also compare "West vs.traditional East Asia (not only China, but also Japan and Korea) in 19th century" in my classroom. This will be a big topic for my students, too.
[Edit by="kirion on Aug 16, 11:36:11 PM"][/Edit]

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