War Atrocities

[Anonymous]

It's amazing to see someone talk about Ho Chi Minh and Abraham Lincoln in the same sentence! Comparing Abraham Lincoln to Ho Chi Minh is like comparing Mother Theresa to Paris Hilton! Abraham Lincoln conducted a war to maintain the unity of the United States and also prevent the spread of slavery and ultimately the elimination of slavery. Ho Chi Minh on the other hand, conducted a war to enslave people under the system of Communism, and did so through brutal force and terror. Unlike Ho Chi Minh, Abraham Lincoln did not include in his methods of conducting the war, that of murdering those opposed to his goals.

In regards to the Domino Theory, this was not the primary reason for fighting the war in Vietnam. The primary reason for fighting in Vietnam was to maintain American credibility. The Domino Theory was part of it and was based on lessons learned about appeasement during World War Two. This was not only valid and reasonable thinking but it was correct. After the United States lost the will to continue the war and was even prohibited from doing so by Congress, Laos and Cambodia fell to Communism. This would include the extremely brutal regime of the Khmer Rouge. This was followed by Soviet promoted Communist revolutions in other third world countries. The Soviet Union became much more aggresive in its foreign policy after the pullout of the United States from Vietnam and this would not be turned around without a substantial increase in the arms race even to the possibility of outer space, in connection with an eventual loss of soviet will to oppose the United States due to a failing Soviet economy.

[Anonymous]

Was Ho Chi Minh to blame for the Vietnam War? Well, let's see. If independance was the most important thing to him, then he would have chosen a non Communist path rather than forcing Communism upon all of Vietnam and leading his country into war with the United States.

And about Ho Chi Minh as a teacher, Stalin was once a seminarian and Hitler was once an alter boy.

[Anonymous]

Domino Theory was the main reason... not American Credibility

“[The domino theory] was the primary factor motivating the actions of both the Kennedy and the Johnson administrations, without any qualification. It was put forward by President Eisenhower in 1954, very succinctly: If the West loses control of Vietnam, the security of the West will be in danger. "The dominoes will fall," in Eisenhower's words.”

---Robert McNamara, U.S. Secretary of Defense (during Vietnam War)
CNN Interview

[Anonymous]

Vietnam War was a Civil War, (no business for US to be there)

“This was much more a civil war than a war of aggression.....Vietnam itself had all of the characteristics of a civil war, and we didn't look upon it as largely a civil war, and we weren't measuring our progress, as one would have in what was largely a civil war."

---Robert McNamara, U.S. Secretary of Defense (during Vietnam War)
CNN Interview[Edit by="rtaw on Jul 28, 6:55:28 PM"][/Edit]

[Anonymous]

"my paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and it is not either to save or destroy slavery, If I could save the Union without freeing any slave, I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves, I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that."

-- Abrham Lincoln, his famous letter to Horace Greeley

During a civil war, the job of that country's leader is to do what ever necessary to keep the country together. [Edit by="rtaw on Jul 28, 7:44:00 PM"][/Edit]

[Anonymous]

Los Angeles Times…"Atrocities against civilians and prisoners by Army soldiers during the Vietnam War were more common than originally disclosed to the public, according to a Los Angeles Times review of recently unsealed government files. Some 9,000 pages of records the largest collection of documented war crimes in Vietnam include sworn witness testimony, investigative files and status reports for top military brass that detail 320 wartime atrocities substantiated by the Army."

320 Wartime Atrocities committed by U.S. Army

Among the incidents documented in the files:
- seven civilian massacres from 1967 to 1971 that left at least 137 dead;
- 78 additional attacks on unarmed civilians that left at least 57 dead, 56 wounded and 15 sexually assaulted;
- 141 incidents in which US soldiers tortured civilian detainees and prisoners of war.

In one incident detailed in the report, members of the B Company rounded up and gunned down a group of villagers that included women and children after being ordered by a lieutenant to "kill anything that moves". [Edit by="rtaw on Jul 28, 6:58:34 PM"][/Edit]

[Anonymous]

American Credibility???

- Treating Vietnamese Women as Whores…
- Using chemical weapons (agent orange)
- Installing puppet government in South Vietnam
- Bombing neighboring counties, bringing chaos
- Mai Lai massacre (killing innocent women and children)
- Misleading the world
Just to list a few.

US Government has worked with Dictators, Military Regimes, Ruthless Rulers (Marcos, Noreiga, Hussein, Shah of Iran, etc…). We are by no mean credible in the eyes of the world. U.S. Government tends to label leaders who do not agree with its agenda as evil or communist. In doing so we lost sight of the bigger picture. Yes, Ho was a communist. But, he was also a nationalist.

I guess whatever credibility was there before we fought the Vietnam War was gone after the war.

[Anonymous]

For those of you who have questions about Vietnam War and war atrocities, I encourage you to read books and view documentaries about the war. The more you read about it the more you will learn why the war was fought.

I have studied under POWs, Veterans, and Scholars of that time as a PoliSci Major at UCSB. One of the class, “The Vietnam Experience” was featured on 60Minutes was one of the most popular class on campus.

I would also recommend a documentary film called “In the Year of the Pigs.” In one segment of the documentary, an American journalist traveled to North Vietnam during the war. What he saw was amazing. He had unrestricted access while he was there. He saw ordinary everyday people carrying machine guns. If the government were brutal, why would it let their ordinary citizen carry weapons.

[Anonymous]

Thank you brother Ron for making it especially clear for some of our classmates who do not understand the Vietnam War, who do not understand what the U.S. has been doing to the third world for sometime now and just for responding to some comments and view points and historical inaccuracies pointed out by other classmates.

[Anonymous]

Was Ho Chi Minh a stalinist and by what actions? Well howabout forcing millions of people to accept Communism and using force and terror to do so, including murdering those that failed to comply or that opposed him. For instance, with his so called "Land Reform" begun March 2, 1953, his Collectivization program was organized around his "Population Classification Decree" where the North Vietnamese population was put into various categories from landlord to agricultural worker. Those that were classified as landowners were executed by the thousands for the crime of owning land. Many more were locked away in Soviet style gulags. These prisons were continued after the United States pulled out of Vietnam and the Communists conquered the south. This time those that opposed the Communists were locked in what were called "Re-education Camps" until they complied with Communist propaganda. I guess this would be fitting since another post described Ho Chi Minh as a teacher. On this note, every North Vietnamese military unit contained within it, political cadres responsible for ensuring indoctrination by Communist propaganda. When the United States pulled out, those South Vietnamese that could, escaped by cramming themselves onto passenger aircraft even into the wheel well, or cramming into and grabbing onto helicopters as they took off, then again in huge numbers by boat.

If your'e at all confused about what Ho Chi Minh was responsible for, then just take a trip to Little Saigon here in Los Angeles and ask a few people of Vietnamese descent.

It's pathetic to hear Americans denegrate the source of their freedom, the U.S. military. Instead, you can always go down to a VFW Post and interview some veterans.

[Anonymous]

Where are you getting your sources from????

Timeline:
--After the August Revolution (1945) organized by the Việt Minh, Ho became Chairman of the Provisional Government (Premier of the Democratic Republic of Vietnam).

--Though he convinced Emperor Bảo Đại to abdicate, his government was not recognized by any country. He petitioned American President Harry Truman for support for Vietnamese independence, but was rebuffed due to French pressure on the U.S., and his known communist activities.

--On September 2, 1945, after Emperor Bao Dai's abdication, Ho Chi Minh read the Declaration of Independence of Vietnam [9], under the name of the Democratic Republic of Vietnam. With violence between rival Vietnamese factions and French forces spiraling, the British commander, General Sir Douglas Gracey declared martial law.

--In 1954, after the important defeat of the French at the Battle of Điện Biên Phủ, France was forced to give up its colonial empire in Indochina.

--The 1954 Geneva Accords required that a national election would be held in 1956 to reunite Vietnam under one government. The government of South Vietnam, now under the leadership of Ngo Dinh Diem and supported by the United States, refused to hold the stipulated elections.[Edit by="rtaw on Jul 28, 8:54:46 PM"][/Edit]

[Anonymous]

the British, the French, the Americans, oh my!!!
Sounds familiar....

Western Colonial Powers trying to holdon to what was left after WWII.

Vietnamese Declaration of Independence introduced by Ho was very much similar to Jefferson's.

[Anonymous]

As an Asian-American, I have many many Vietnamese friends… (I grew up in San Gabriel and went to middle school and high school with many Vietnamese immigrants) They will gladly tell you that the main reason they left Vietnam was due to their association with the United States… not because of Ho Chi Minh. US is responsible for them immigrating to America, not Ho Chi Minh.

Also, I have personally talked with POWs, Veterans, and Military Commanders of that time. Most (if not all) of them will tell you that U.S. Government made a huge mistake. Why do you think alot of veterans were in the anti-war movement???? (Are they less Patriotic because they question the government?)

Robert McNamara, US Secretary of Defense during Vietnam War will tell you that we made a huge mistake.

I have nothing against United States military. The men and women in uniforms are great people and I have great respect for them. My problem is with “a few” elites, who never served a day in uniform, which make up the government, that manipulates the masses and use brave military men and women for their own selfish needs.

[Anonymous]

Perhaps the biggest tragedy is that Ho Chi Mihn actually asked the US for help in an effort to end French colonialism. As a student in France around the time of th e treaty of Versille, Ho Chi Mihn petitioned then President Wilson with a very Declaration of Independece influenced document. In essence it was a letter from a conquered colonial people to the first upstart anti-colonial power: the US. Ho CHi Mihn hoped Americ had not foregotten its roots in her own colonial struggle, and would come to Vietnam's aid. But as we all know America was distancing herself from her colonial past--now as a major player on the world stage--it was she who was leary of any obstacles to her own ambitions for her own colonial and global aspirations. Ho Chi Mihn's request went unanswered.

Although a communist by then, Ho Chi Mihn battled the Vichy and Japanese, and at the end of WWII again asked for US assistance and to pressure France to end colonial rule. This time it was Truman who was contacted. Truman did nothing, and Vietnam fell into the austere control of De'Gaullian colonialism. With little other choice, and seeing himself as part of an anti-colonial struggle, Ho Chi Mihn continued to battle.

Would it have all been different if the US Presidents would have put aside the communist scares, and truly engaged the Vietnemese to see if they could work on diplomatically resolving the solution. God only knows it such action on the US's part has always seemed to deal a death blow to communist leader in the true sense--just look at modern China.Eastern Europe. You must kill them with kindness not with fear and explosives. To keep the cliches up--if we'd only have won their hearts and minds from the outset we'd never have had to sit and wait to see of the proverbeal domino fell. Wait it did--and aside from displacing many a decent Vietnamese, not much else happened. America left, and the Vietnamese continued to fight the Cambodians, Laotians, and later the Chinese. What an avoidable story if you ask me.[Edit by="chellmold on Jul 29, 11:57:24 AM"][/Edit]

[Anonymous]

About the LA Times article on war atrocities.

You forgot to mention it's author Nick Turse, a dedicated far left radical and America hater who as the LA Times says uncovered materials while researching his doctoral dissertation but then didn't mention its title, Kill Anything That Moves: U.S. War Crimes and Atrocities in Vietnam, 1965-1973. The LA Times and Nick Turse have a clear agenda. Just do some searches on this guy to discover what he's all about. No atrocity is acceptable and for that reason a balanced account is needed. All of his research has been filtered through his extreme agenda. No mention has been made of Vietcong atrocities. Take a look at http://www.penraker.com/archives/005091.html for what was left out.

[Author]

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