Women in East Asian History 8-6-08 (Morning Session)

[Rob_Hugo@PortNW]

This is the place you will post your discussion about East Asian History by Prof. Lisa Fischler.
Have a great evening! 😀 [Edit by="rosanna_elgohary on Aug 5, 11:03:24 PM"][/Edit]

[Anonymous]

International and national trafficking in women and children – and all humans for that matter – is, of course, something that needs to be stopped. We looked for many causes today, which naturally led to possible solutions. To stop this huge industry is a huge undertaking. How can we control what tourists do when they go to Cambodia or how the law enforcement treats women? I found the concept of “supportive intercourse” by these “parasitic singles” extremely disturbing. Here we are in the 21st century and while these ambitious college graduates want to change the world, they are really setting it back by participating in this “supportive intercourse.” They are saying to the world that using one’s body as a commodity is acceptable and tolerable. Now, my guess is that their thought process is that it is their body and who cares what they do with it? That it is a win-win: the patron gets pleasure and the “service giver” gets the money to buy the product they want, but each act of “supportive intercourse” condones trade for sexual favors, which could lead to more “heavy duty” prostitution and trafficking. In order to stop the trafficking, yes, it is important to find out where it started, but perhaps it would help to stop this new generation from engaging in “supportive intercourse” and supporting the human trafficking industry.

[Anonymous]

How moving this film was. I don’t even know where to begin. It is some what hard to fathom that with the gender problem, there are still so many girls that are discarded…that so many families (mothers) would still prefer to have sons. It is scary and so very disheartening to think about what this gender problem will very likely lead to. And with these girls being discarded in orphanages, and so many never being adopted, it just seems so much more likely that the kidnapping and forced marriage and forced prostitution will happen. I can understand there being a sense of urgency to want to educate people on the validity and equality of women. But how useful will this information be after centuries of practices and beliefs taught and learned to the contrary? What does the future hold for these girls so soon to be women? It makes me feel more compassionate and thankful to families who are going to China and adopting the children. It doesn’t completely wipe away my troubled thoughts about children in America who need the same love and compassion and opportunity. But it does make me more accepting of outside adoptions…not that I was anti such adoptions before, but I have always wondered why? now i see one valid reason for why.

[Anonymous]

The discussion was raised today whether or not the government was ultimately to blame for not doing enough or making it too easy for the trafficking of females for sex. Some of these women were openly tricked or kidnapped and others were more or less willingly exploited. I would like to discuss the ones who are willing exploited. In other words they made the decision themselves or maybe were even pushed in that direction, but not by force. For example some young women or girls went to Bangkok to work as prostitutes in order to escape their horrible neglected situation at home, and others in order to help support the family back home. Now, if the governments in some of these countries were not so oppressive these young girls would not feel the need to be put into these situations. Even if the people wanted to mobilize and help change the government's involvement, they do not really have anyone to turn to, or in some cases they could be killed for causing problems, as is the case in Myanmar (Burma). So from this perspective the government is the problem, and there is not much the people can do about it. As for society, we might say that it is times like this when people need to hunker down, get close as a family and community, and not fall into the pitfalls of despair and drugs. As we noticed from the film it is obviously not the wealthy areas were these problems lie. Seems just like in the USA, a socioeconomic problem as well, but of course we have it much better off.

Let me draw an analogy, but not a close one. The United States, in my opinion has become a super-sexed country. Look at all the sex that is on television these days. Look at how the women dress and are portrayed in these reality shows. These our not the best example of our society, and I would argue some of the worst, but we allow this trash to be shown to our unsuspecting youth on a daily basis. Society allows it and so does the government. Sure we can choose to turn it off, but the reality is that in many homes we have latch-key kids or no parental role model to make sure this is done. The result we have today is young girls dressing and acting like, how can I put it lightly, sluts. The boys learn that this is the way girls are to behave, and in like, behave like uncivilized Neanderthals ready to whack them on the head, and drag them by their hair to who knows where. If we as a society don't draw the line somewhere and force the government to draw it with us, how will we end up?

[Anonymous]

I’m starting to struggle with the idea of teaching the values of Confucianism. The five aspects of humanity, reverence-generosity-truthfulness-diligence-kindness, all seem to be subsumed by filial piety. But when I looked up filial piety in Ebrey’s text, Confucius speaks of children honoring BOTH their father and mother: “When your parents are alive, serve them according to the rules of ritual and decorum” (Ebrey 21). That does NOT say that mothers must honor their sons, so what is the source of the ideology that that women have no value until they produce sons?

Sadly, however confusing the logic, female degradation does seem to explain why authority figures condone trafficking of women and girls for sexual slavery. How repugnant that Japanese men go on sex tours! Their reward for working hard is the right to rape young women? That seems very different to me than an evening spent in the entertainment of the geisha who are treasured for their wit as much as their beauty.

Is this really the consequence of political marriages? That question is, returning to British literature once again, one theme in Shakespeare’s Romeo and Juliet. Juliet’s father is following a sad, but well-established protocol when he forces Juliet to marry in order to advance his own status and reputation. The final haunting imagery in Ellen Bruno’s documentary Sacrifice seems a powerful metaphor for loveless sexual intercourse. Rather than experiencing the rich sensual pleasure represented by the young girl running freely through the field, the sexual act is removed from mutual pleasure and becomes merely a travesty whose purpose is to produce heirs, to exert brutal power, to relieve tensions.

How tragic.

[Anonymous]

I think you have a point Matt, but it's not just sex our society has become desensitized to many things, violence, sex, vulgarity, terrorism, etc. and it is to be expected in such a global society, I guess. I sometimes wish we could go back to the days when media was kind and gentle. Then I realize we have made some wonderful discoveries and it is up to us how we use it. I think (take it for what it's worth) that not only does government need to say this is unacceptable, but all of us need to speak up however we can. I really enjoyed the movie about adoption at lunch. That was so heart warming, but only a small dent was made in the orphan problem. Hopefully the message will reach the people that girls are valuable.

[Anonymous]

I was really dismayed by the assertion that all (or most, if you want to backpedal) manga is pornographic! This statement really perturbs me because I am the club advisor for our school's Anime (and Manga) club, so that would mean for the past 5 years, twice a week, I have been condoning the use of pornography in my classroom at lunch. Pretty intense, right? So now you know why I nearly fell out of my chair.

I remember many of you saying that your students read manga, so it made me afraid for your students! Does this mean you think they're reading porn under your noses during silent reading?* Come on, now!

I promised Lisa I would gladly make my Anime Club draft a massive list of G and PG rated manga for her to use in her class. Let me know if any of you want that list (the school year begins on Monday for me, so that list will be sooner coming than you may realize!).

Also, think about The Tale of Genji manga the Japanese lit. prof. shared with us. Sure, one of them was pretty graphic and racy, but not all manga is like that. It's just like American comics-- some are for kids, some are definitely adults-only.

Generalizations like that are scary. Go to your local chain bookstore-- they have shelves stocked to the ceiling with kid-friendly manga. Buy one that doesn't have girls with massive bazooms, and watch how you connect with some of your most marginalized and misunderstood kids. I promise.

*Okay, Mary N., your students probably are, but you guys know what I mean!

=:O

[Anonymous]

Kelly, thank you for your clarification of "all magna is pornographic." Just as you predicted, I was concerned about the magna in read in my classroom. I never bothered to review it, but after that statement and the viewing of the explicit Tale of Genji I was concerned about the genre and its appropriateness in the classroom (plus, my 12 year old son has one on his bookshelf!)

I will absolutely make use of your list both for my household and my classroom. Finding ways to entice non-readers to become avid readers, I think magna will help reign in many, as you say, marginalized kids. Your expert list will not only be the starting point for me, but also my library book buying guide. Thank you for offering it to us.

[Anonymous]

Deceiving an innocent and naive community can and is profitable. It is unfortunate that women are puppets in a man’s world. Men who make the rules based on their perceptions, beliefs, needs, and desires.

The question about using women to prostitute, young women in particular, and why not older women was discussed. It was said that the fear of aids was one reason, and older prostitute has had sex many times compared to a virgin. However, the most important reason was that men had to protect their heirs to inherit their land. Everyone needed to know who their sons were. These traditions continue today.

Push-pull factors are real and strong, they are the reason why people become victims and are forced to chose, sometimes even if they know it is morally wrong. Mostly, these people are so closed off from the world and don’t know what’s really out there. Glamour, money, power, and position win over morality, traditional and religious values.

A discussion between colleagues today was split if we need to know the “why/cause” of a situation/problem. In this case it was about trafficking. I believe it is important to know the “why.” We need to know so that it doesn’t keep happening over and over again, plus we have to know what cause the problem so that we can solve it. I also believe that trafficking has been so profitable to men through monetary and sexual pleasures; they have received all the benefits on this one. Trying to justify it by saying that it has happen for so long you can’t change it is a cop out. Another excuse was that men work so hard and long hours that they can use women who are trafficked in by other men is also a cop out. Get married men, or is the responsibility to much? Maybe it is easier for SOME men to use women and throw them away after they get what they want from them. It is really sick that a man who knows right from wrong, and who practices Christianity, Islam, Confucianism, and other religion or ideology that says one should be loyal to his family could go out and do this with someone as young. Men should think about their sisters, or young daughters, and if they would want them to be trafficked. Men should start to reevaluate their purpose here on earth and if they are really protecting the human rights of women and children.

Sorry, I have to disagree about criteria on what makes a resource valid. We teach our kids to find reliable sources and its importance to do so. We also teach them to think critically. I often go against the grain on things like this. If we are teaching our kids to think critically and question authority, how can we do that if we only accept scholarly hierarchal resources? How about the dirty little secrets that are kept under the rug that are found out by people who have moved the rug to sweep them out? I’m talking investigative reporting, people with personal experiences, or just a regular common person. As a photographer, I have learned many tricks, both on the camera and on computer software. I can erase a person from a picture or add in people, backgrounds, change what the person is wearing, etc. Example we took by authority what Rumsfeld, Powell, and even Bush endorsed on those photos of so called massive destruction in Iraq. Without people questioning it the truth would have never been investigated and found out that there were no massive weapons of destruction. Those are authoritative resources and we take it for granted that what they say is true. So if we’re really teaching our kids to be thinking critically and questioning authority we need to accept other sources than those they say we are supposed to.

[Anonymous]

"They were young prostitutes aged nine and twelve years old who had been locked in the basement unable to escape",Matsui explains about five girls who died in a fire in Thailand. Feeling utterly helpless, information like this stops me dead in my tracks. Where have we gone wrong? A couple days ago I picked up a magazine that featured a story about the growing prostitution rate of Iraqi women who have been displaced because of the war. Their circumstances were such that if they didn't "voluntarily" become prostitutes they would die destitute. A friend of my who had the means and the opportunity to visit Cuba, was confronted with the tragedy of girls as young as 9 years old in the prostitution ring. Today, Prof. Lisa Fischler discussed how Japan, Thailand, China, Korea, the world is taking part in this degradation of women. My, how interconnected we are.

Some of us argue that a government allows this, rather we should say all governments past and present. Other of us argue that "those" women, when not tricked into it or forced into it, are to blame. Still others blame the sexualized media we are exposed to on a daily basis. What about the fact that there's a market for it?! Women are viewed now and clearly in the past, as objects, second class citizens, sub human, weak, inconsequential. As long as children grow up believing this, internalizing it and making it their unconscious truth nothing is going to change. This is one place where our role as educators become incredibly important. I'm not advocating that we preach to students, we know that doesn't work, but we need to exposed them to the plight of women in underdeveloped countries of the past and the present. To use Harper Lee's metaphor of a mockingbird, a mockingbird in essence is killed when it only learns one song for it is capable of learning over 100. If we only teach about the wars, the revolutions, the conquests of men how could they, our mockingbirds, ever see beyond the values of our patriarchal society? [Edit by="lculp on Aug 6, 11:49:29 PM"][/Edit]

[Anonymous]

The information about validating web sources is an invaluable tool for today's students. It is so important for them to understand when a source is credible and when one is questionable. Although I have stuff I use with students on how to validate a source, the handouts Lisa gave us will become part of my curriculum. I envision myself teaching two or three lessons just on web cite evaluations.

Rosanna, I do believe that students should look under the rug so-to-speak, critical thinkers must. To exercise their critical thinking skills we must provide guidelines for them so that when they move on to the "questionable" sources they are ready to tackle it in a scholarly way.

[Anonymous]

I have always enjoyed the following poem by Thomas Hardy, but it took on a new layer of interpretation today after seeing Ellen Bruno’s “Sacrifice.”

The Ruined Maid

"O 'Melia, my dear, this does everything crown!
Who could have supposed I should meet you in Town?
And whence such fair garments, such prosperi-ty?"
"O didn't you know I'd been ruined?" said she.

"You left us in tatters, without shoes or socks,
Tired of digging potatoes, and spudding up docks;
And now you've gay bracelets and bright feathers three!"
"Yes: that's how we dress when we're ruined," said she.

-"At home in the barton you said 'thee' and 'thou,'
And 'thik oon,' and 'theäs oon,' and 't'other'; but now
Your talking quite fits 'ee for high compa-ny!"
"Some polish is gained with one's ruin," said she.

"Your hands were like paws then, your face blue and bleak
But now I'm bewitched by your delicate cheek,
And your little gloves fit as on any la-dy!"
"We never do work when we're ruined," said she.

"You used to call home-life a hag-ridden dream,
And you'd sigh, and you'd sock; but at present you seem
To know not of megrims or melancho-ly!"
"True. One's pretty lively when ruined," said she.

"I wish I had feathers, a fine sweeping gown,
And a delicate face, and could strut about Town!"
"My dear a raw country girl, such as you be,
Cannot quite expect that. You ain't ruined," said she.

Always before, I’ve thought Hardy’s maid is glibly content with her new life of prostitution because she has escaped the poverty of rustic England and now has beautiful clothing, skin, and language to flaunt before her former companion. However, the admiration of the Burmese villagers for the clothing, skin, and experience of the girls who returned from their forced prostitution lends a different interpretation to Hardy’s poem. Similarly, while watching the people’s naked hands wield mallets to break rocks, I had to think that the Burmese workers would also have hands “like paws.” The final line in Hardy’s poem, “You ain’t ruined,” with its grammatical slip seems to echo the longing of both the Victorian maid’s subliminal longing to return to her rustic self and the Burmese girl’s secret wish to erase the violations she has endured.

[Anonymous]

I’m always attracted to those things that are universal, that know no cultural boundaries. To see and hear the soul and blues in Big Mama was great. Had it been an actual group performing, I was planning on running out and buying the c.d. today. These are the types of things that my students need to be introduced to…these things that see no culture, that see no color lines. That upright base and that trumpet playing was great to see, and something I would not have expected to see in Korean culture, even though music is a universal thing. That soul, that blues feel, it comes from here, it comes from the souls of those in Renaissance Era America, but to see it appreciated and embraced outside of America is awesome. I’m amazed that I have not heard of Rain before today. He seems to be Korea’s epitome of pop culture/music, at least as it is perceived in America. This would be a great avenue for me to use to introduce my students to an interconnection between themselves and Korea. My main goal, with all of these lessons, is to show my students how much they are the “same” with the rest of the world, with Asia. The differences are the norm, are what they know, what they expect, why they have their prejudices. For me, it’s the interconnection, the similarities that I want to highlight.

[Anonymous]

I was surprised to learn that Japan has the highest human trafficking rate, and as the days have passed, this is something that has stuck in my mind. It seemed from the presentation that it was acceptable in Japan for a man to have a prostitute along with his wife - whatever you call them courtesans or concubines or Geishas (yes I know they are promised to one person, and that they are intellectuals as well), they are high class prostitutes. Is this still acceptable today?
When people talk about oversexualization in the media, I always think of the US, but it seems a similar phenomenon is happening in Japan? Maybe it is not so phenomenal...Perhaps this explains why Sailor Moon and her friends always had such short skirts that blow in the wind when they call on their powers. My manga is the same way. Is this overseualization attributed to the intercnnectedness we spoke of in the beginning of the seminar? Things to think about...

[Anonymous]

I saw a blip on the news that another brothel in the US was raided and found to be trafficking young girls. They were operating as a day spa. Click here for an article.

[Author]

Posts